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Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians

5 years ago :: Dec 21, 2007 - 11:08PM #1
chicagojim Posts: 0	Steve's most recent article, about moving Jeter off SS, led me to think about the last thought he expressed there. To paraphrase, he said that if you attach sentimental value to a player or players, and place that value above winning, you're not really a baseball fan. To a large degree, I agree with this. I would rather see the Yanks win with a bruised Jeter ego than lose with his self-assurance undented. That said, however...there is more to rooting for the Yankees (or any other team) than just a logo. I remember when I was a kid, and Don Mattingly was my favorite player. There were rumors one year of a Mattingly-for Will-Clark trade, sometime in the late 80's, I think, and although in retrospect it would certainly have been better for the Yankees from a win perspective over subsequent years, and probably would have looked that way even at the time from a sabermetric standpoint, it would have devastated me as a fan. Now, i am 100% in agreement with Steve's methods on player evaluation. And I certainly agree that old ballplayers, like Berine in 2007, probably need to be shown the door if they're not convinced they're done. But we don't fall in love with a logo as kids. We have our heroes, and we want them to stay with our teams. Sports can be (and obviously are) enjoyed by people of all ages, but its as kids that we attach ourselves to our favortie team for all time, and a big part of that is the players we idolize. When we grow up, of course, we realize the choices that have to be made to win, and that makes a difference. STill, i don't think that it's entirely true that if you swapped out the entire Yankees roster tomorrow and replaced them with all-stars from all the other teams, that we would all just root as hard for whoever happens to have pinstripes on as we would for the guys we've cheered for over the years. A straight up Jeter-for-Pujols trade, impossible in real life, would undoubtedly make the Yankees a bit better. Still, it would sadden me. When my son gets old enough, I hope that his favorite player, whoever that ends up being (Tabata? Chamberlain?), can stay with the Yankees for his entire career, even if that's a sentimental call.
5 years ago :: Dec 21, 2007 - 11:08PM #2
chicagojim Posts: 0	Steve's most recent article, about moving Jeter off SS, led me to think about the last thought he expressed there. To paraphrase, he said that if you attach sentimental value to a player or players, and place that value above winning, you're not really a baseball fan. To a large degree, I agree with this. I would rather see the Yanks win with a bruised Jeter ego than lose with his self-assurance undented. That said, however...there is more to rooting for the Yankees (or any other team) than just a logo. I remember when I was a kid, and Don Mattingly was my favorite player. There were rumors one year of a Mattingly-for Will-Clark trade, sometime in the late 80's, I think, and although in retrospect it would certainly have been better for the Yankees from a win perspective over subsequent years, and probably would have looked that way even at the time from a sabermetric standpoint, it would have devastated me as a fan. Now, i am 100% in agreement with Steve's methods on player evaluation. And I certainly agree that old ballplayers, like Berine in 2007, probably need to be shown the door if they're not convinced they're done. But we don't fall in love with a logo as kids. We have our heroes, and we want them to stay with our teams. Sports can be (and obviously are) enjoyed by people of all ages, but its as kids that we attach ourselves to our favortie team for all time, and a big part of that is the players we idolize. When we grow up, of course, we realize the choices that have to be made to win, and that makes a difference. STill, i don't think that it's entirely true that if you swapped out the entire Yankees roster tomorrow and replaced them with all-stars from all the other teams, that we would all just root as hard for whoever happens to have pinstripes on as we would for the guys we've cheered for over the years. A straight up Jeter-for-Pujols trade, impossible in real life, would undoubtedly make the Yankees a bit better. Still, it would sadden me. When my son gets old enough, I hope that his favorite player, whoever that ends up being (Tabata? Chamberlain?), can stay with the Yankees for his entire career, even if that's a sentimental call.
5 years ago :: Dec 22, 2007 - 3:12AM #3
MyYESNetwork Posts: 0	Many of us are fortunate to have a core group of players we can look forward to seeing in pinstripes year after year (Jeter, Mo, Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, and we have to include A-Rod, .....) . It is very rewarding to watch player develop from a tentative rookie to a confident seasoned player. Like night follows day, it's certainly nice to know when changes occurs, there is always a core group that remains intact . As the years continues, this nucleus will lead the way to inspire the next core of Yankee pinstripers( Hughes, Joba, Kennedy.......) for generations to come.
5 years ago :: Dec 22, 2007 - 3:12AM #4
MyYESNetwork Posts: 0	Many of us are fortunate to have a core group of players we can look forward to seeing in pinstripes year after year (Jeter, Mo, Bernie, Posada, Pettitte, and we have to include A-Rod, .....) . It is very rewarding to watch player develop from a tentative rookie to a confident seasoned player. Like night follows day, it's certainly nice to know when changes occurs, there is always a core group that remains intact . As the years continues, this nucleus will lead the way to inspire the next core of Yankee pinstripers( Hughes, Joba, Kennedy.......) for generations to come.
5 years ago :: Dec 22, 2007 - 12:32PM #5
Pinstriper7 Posts: 0	Great Post Chicagojim! I started that whole thing and here was my response to steven, Hi Steven, Thanks for you quick response to my e-mail question about Jeter being moved to left field. I have to admit sentimentalism did play a role in my question, and there was a hint of sarcasm. Jeter is not above the game, and I have to agree with you on all points, but if we are going to look at baseball as a business, which I agree it is, then in reality, moving Jeter to an outfield position would be a bad move. In your words you said that he looked sluggish and has knee problems. Do you really move a guy to the outfield if he has slowed down, and has possibly the beginnings of knee problems? Well then maybe he can play first base? If the Yanks were to move Jeter to first base, then you have a range problem again, any ball hit down the line will be an automatic double, because we all know that Jeter cannot move well to his left. From a business stand point, that is, winning is everything, which i do believe this to be the case with sports today, Jeter at first is also a liability. What would the Yankees do? If this is about the almighty dollar, which it is and winning brings a lot of that in, then the best thing business wise would be for the Yankees to trade him while he still has trade value. Do you think sentimentalism and good P.R. would allow that? Business wise that is the right move, especially after giving A-Rod the big money, Jeter will be expecting a nice raise also. Not that I am saying any of this is going to happen, but baseball fans do have sentimental ties to their team and it's players, Mantle, DiMaggio, from what I have read, your personal favorite, Babe, and many others. Have we come to a place, where we no longer care about our personal favorites, guys who have given us some great memories, do we just discard them because they may have lost a step. Before I allow that mentality to overtake me I will give up watching baseball. I would like to share this with you, when I was a young kid, 7or so (1966,67), on a Sunday afternoon hanging out with my dad and my uncle's, with the little thirteen inch black and white tuned to the Yankee game, everything would stop when Mick came up to the plate to take his swings, they would make we watch the TV while they were playing cards, and I had to call them when it was time for him to bat. There was another time I believe it was in 1967, I was at the stadium, and Mantle got up to bat, he hit a single, he ran down to first base as best as he could, once he was there, Houk pulled Mantle for a pinch runner, the entire stadium booed, what an experience it was for me one that I would never forget fans had tears in their eye's, and it was an experience that has made me a sentimental Yankee fan for life.
5 years ago :: Dec 22, 2007 - 12:32PM #6
Pinstriper7 Posts: 0	Great Post Chicagojim! I started that whole thing and here was my response to steven, Hi Steven, Thanks for you quick response to my e-mail question about Jeter being moved to left field. I have to admit sentimentalism did play a role in my question, and there was a hint of sarcasm. Jeter is not above the game, and I have to agree with you on all points, but if we are going to look at baseball as a business, which I agree it is, then in reality, moving Jeter to an outfield position would be a bad move. In your words you said that he looked sluggish and has knee problems. Do you really move a guy to the outfield if he has slowed down, and has possibly the beginnings of knee problems? Well then maybe he can play first base? If the Yanks were to move Jeter to first base, then you have a range problem again, any ball hit down the line will be an automatic double, because we all know that Jeter cannot move well to his left. From a business stand point, that is, winning is everything, which i do believe this to be the case with sports today, Jeter at first is also a liability. What would the Yankees do? If this is about the almighty dollar, which it is and winning brings a lot of that in, then the best thing business wise would be for the Yankees to trade him while he still has trade value. Do you think sentimentalism and good P.R. would allow that? Business wise that is the right move, especially after giving A-Rod the big money, Jeter will be expecting a nice raise also. Not that I am saying any of this is going to happen, but baseball fans do have sentimental ties to their team and it's players, Mantle, DiMaggio, from what I have read, your personal favorite, Babe, and many others. Have we come to a place, where we no longer care about our personal favorites, guys who have given us some great memories, do we just discard them because they may have lost a step. Before I allow that mentality to overtake me I will give up watching baseball. I would like to share this with you, when I was a young kid, 7or so (1966,67), on a Sunday afternoon hanging out with my dad and my uncle's, with the little thirteen inch black and white tuned to the Yankee game, everything would stop when Mick came up to the plate to take his swings, they would make we watch the TV while they were playing cards, and I had to call them when it was time for him to bat. There was another time I believe it was in 1967, I was at the stadium, and Mantle got up to bat, he hit a single, he ran down to first base as best as he could, once he was there, Houk pulled Mantle for a pinch runner, the entire stadium booed, what an experience it was for me one that I would never forget fans had tears in their eye's, and it was an experience that has made me a sentimental Yankee fan for life.
5 years ago :: Dec 23, 2007 - 5:56PM #7
NevadaYank Posts: 0	I see old Steve's view have not changed since I have been away, he still makes everyone else but Arod of the Yankees the scape goat. The Athlete, Jeter who Goldman actually has the nerve to criticize has had three 200 hit season in a row for the Yankees, If that is slowing down i will take it, With even talk by many of anybody breaking Pete Rose's careers hit record Jeter could be the one. No one outside of Goldman believes Jeter will slow down dramatically all of a sudden. Imagine that comparing Jumping Joe at the end of career to Jeter and what the Yankees should do with Jeter. If I did not know Goldman's writings so well I would believe some Boston troll wrote that piece instead of a New York Yankee writer. Lets look at it in a different perspective with Arod Improving his defence in 2007 over 2006 the infield with Phillips returning was a big plus for New York and not the negitive that our friend Steve would like to make out. with the two's Arod's and Jeter 's numbers and the three quarters of a year Cano had offensively there wasn't an infield in the league that could match those three in production and overall defence when combined. Now the idiot Steve wants to replace Jeter with an untested rookie from Colorado who's team got sweep ed by Boston in the WS. while during the season the Yankees with the infield they had easily won the season series. The Yankee problems last season was not infield related, it came from a extremely slow start by many players offensively and a pitching staff that was highly suspect. No kind of revisionist history that Goldman presents changes the fact when the Yankees did get their act together they where the Hottest team in the league. and nearly won the division after being 14 !/2 games behind. Next time You believe Steve has come up with a brain storm, I believe you should go take a Rolaids or just go to the toilet because instead of a brain storm all it was is a case of indigestion.
5 years ago :: Dec 23, 2007 - 5:56PM #8
NevadaYank Posts: 0	I see old Steve's view have not changed since I have been away, he still makes everyone else but Arod of the Yankees the scape goat. The Athlete, Jeter who Goldman actually has the nerve to criticize has had three 200 hit season in a row for the Yankees, If that is slowing down i will take it, With even talk by many of anybody breaking Pete Rose's careers hit record Jeter could be the one. No one outside of Goldman believes Jeter will slow down dramatically all of a sudden. Imagine that comparing Jumping Joe at the end of career to Jeter and what the Yankees should do with Jeter. If I did not know Goldman's writings so well I would believe some Boston troll wrote that piece instead of a New York Yankee writer. Lets look at it in a different perspective with Arod Improving his defence in 2007 over 2006 the infield with Phillips returning was a big plus for New York and not the negitive that our friend Steve would like to make out. with the two's Arod's and Jeter 's numbers and the three quarters of a year Cano had offensively there wasn't an infield in the league that could match those three in production and overall defence when combined. Now the idiot Steve wants to replace Jeter with an untested rookie from Colorado who's team got sweep ed by Boston in the WS. while during the season the Yankees with the infield they had easily won the season series. The Yankee problems last season was not infield related, it came from a extremely slow start by many players offensively and a pitching staff that was highly suspect. No kind of revisionist history that Goldman presents changes the fact when the Yankees did get their act together they where the Hottest team in the league. and nearly won the division after being 14 !/2 games behind. Next time You believe Steve has come up with a brain storm, I believe you should go take a Rolaids or just go to the toilet because instead of a brain storm all it was is a case of indigestion.
5 years ago :: Feb 02, 2008 - 9:08AM #9
yanks2008 Posts: 0	Lets forget the past and look foward to an awarding 2008!!
5 years ago :: Feb 02, 2008 - 9:08AM #10
yanks2008 Posts: 0	Lets forget the past and look foward to an awarding 2008!!

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