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Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:37PM, NYYGuy wrote:

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:35PM, ratmann wrote:

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:33PM, NYYGuy wrote:

I loved George as our owner too, but absolutely not for his baseball acumen.

 

The same George that I'm seeing some fans actually believe would solve all the Yankees problems on the field...at one time came very close to forcing the team to trade Ron Guidry but backed down when his GM threatened to quit. He also didn't think much of Mariano Rivera and wanted him gone. Yeah. He came very close to forcing Watson to trade Posada and Mendoza for Rickey Henderson in 97. Thank goodness Watson challenged him and avoided that disaster.

 

No doubt the Pineda-Montero trade wouldn't have happened under George, but only because Montero would have been traded a long time ago probably for some 30+ year old "big name" who would have never lived up to his contract. That was the George way.

 

Anyone who thinks George was the greatest baseball mind in the sport is playing historical revisionism. Period.

 

 

he wasnt the greatest owner but he was sure a lot better than most team owners these days because he wanted to have the best team out there and didnt care how much it cost , unlike most current owners who only want to line their pockets with the revenue they get from the teams.

Never doubted his intentions... but I'm not going to canonize him just on his baseball acumen. That's all.

noone asked you to .  the point of this thread, is cashman's ability as a GM , nothing about owners

The Montero trade is over, lots of good baseball people thought and several still do think it was better for the Yankees then the Mariners.. Ca$hman didn't do this trade all on his own, I'm sure there were more Yankee minds involved in this besides just his.. Yes it's a shame Pineda has to have surgery and miss the entire 2012 season, but I personally don't think it's the end of the world.. Hopefully Mr. Pineda will learn from this and make him a better pitcher because of it ?? I think from all that has been said there's a real good chance, (in fact his Dr. has stated an 85% chance he will be as good as ever) if he wants to work hard he can still be the type of pitcher the Yankees and Ca$hman envisioned him to be... 

Apr 29, 2012 -- 9:33PM, NYYGuy wrote:

I loved George as our owner too, but absolutely not for his baseball acumen.

 

Let's not forget at one time that very same George came very close to forcing the team to trade Ron Guidry but backed down when his GM threatened to quit. He also didn't think much of Mariano Rivera and wanted him gone. Yeah. He came very close to forcing Watson to trade Posada and Mendoza for Rickey Henderson in 97. Thank goodness Watson challenged him and avoided that disaster.

 

No doubt the Pineda-Montero trade wouldn't have happened under George, but only because Montero would have been traded a long time ago probably for some 30+ year old "big name" who would have never lived up to his contract. That was the George way.

 

Anyone who thinks George was the greatest baseball mind in the sport and would solve all the Yankees problems on the field today is playing pure historical revisionism. Period.

 

 

Looking back, I think if George Steinbrenner was still around, he would of given up the farm for Cliff Lee and risk losing him at the end of the season. Once the Mariners said they wouldn't trade King Felix, Yanks would of probably came away with Gavin Floyd and probably give up more than they did when they traded for Pineda. Either that, or we'd have Kuroda, Oswalt and Pettitte. I think everyone is looking at this as a one way or another type of deal and not really realistically trying to see this from Brian Cashman and George Steinbrenners point of view. I think both have faults. 

Apr 29, 2012 -- 8:34AM, craner7 wrote:

I'm not a Cashman basher but I found this article very disturbing. Don't know if this has been posted before so forgive me if it has.

His record on pitchers is filled with holes. But this Pineda deal of him coming to ST 30 lbs overweight is very troubling. Where's his sense of responsibility to his team, let alone himself? And shouldn't Cashman been on top of this?

It is probably a good thing George Steinbrenner is no longer around to unleash his wrath after Brian Cashman’s latest pitching fiasco. No doubt, the Yankee GM would be only the most prominent victim, among many in the Yankee organization, once the Boss began sorting out all that went down with the Michael Pineda trade and the big righthander’s subsequent career-threatening shoulder injury.

        Before we get into the degree of blame Cashman deserves for this disastrous development — in which the pitcher for whom the GM sacrificed the Yankees’ No. 1 prospect, slugger Jesus Montero — know this: Steinbrenner fired general managers for far less. In 1983, then-Yankee GM Murray Cook was barred by the Boss from spring training for the first three weeks, then confined to his trailer once he got there, only to be replaced altogether at the start of the season — all for the egregious mistake of losing righthander Tim Belcher, the Yankees’ No. 1 pick in the January amateur draft, through a loophole to the Oakland A’s in the free agent compensation pool.

        Poor Cook never saw that one coming — that, once he’d signed Belcher, the kid was eligible to be taken by the A’s, even though the protected lists for the free agent compensation pool had been submitted a week earlier. How could they lose a player they weren’t even able to protect? Didn’t matter. Steinbrenner blamed Cook, and from there evolved the legend of the “Murray Cook tan” — the tongue-in-cheek sobriquet in later years attributed to all of those pale-faced new arrivals from the north at spring training.

        As for the Montero-Pineda situation, even though there were red flags with Pineda — his subpar second half last year (5.12 ERA), his “violent delivery” as scouts described it — Cashman had every good reason to make the deal. Montero was essentially going to be a part-time DH for the Yankees this year while the 6-7, 23-year-old Pineda projected to be a top-of-the-rotation starter.

        Young pitchers with such upside almost never become available. Plus, for all the hype they placed on Montero, the Yankees never believed he’d develop into a trustworthy everyday catcher and had instead determined Austin Romine to be their heir apparent there.

        But here’s where Cashman and his baseball advisers dropped the ball: Once they acquired Pineda, he suddenly became precious goods, given that they’d traded their one big chip for him and, as such, needed to be handled with care. But instead of setting up an offseason training regimen at their complex in the Dominican Republic — the domain of Steinbrenner’s son-in-law, Felix (The Gardner) Lopez, their so-called director of international relations, and senior VP of baseball operations, Mark Newman — Cashman essentially told Pineda “see you in spring training.”

        And when next he did see him, the pitcher was 30 pounds overweight. The crash conditioning course that followed, at the same time Pineda was developing a changeup, conceivably contributed to the shoulder tear. All the extensive MRIs the Yankees had performed on him before he went home to the Dominican Republic for the winter showed no evidence of any shoulder damage. Making matters worse, though, is the fact that Romine has been sidelined indefinitely with what one source termed a “chronic” back injury.

        So even if the trade itself cannot be considered a bad deal on Cashman’s part, the end result — from a failure of the Yankees to monitor Pineda’s offseason conditioning — only adds to the GM’s dismal legacy of pitching busts: $46 million for Kei Igawa; $40 million for Carl Pavano; $22.5 million for Steve Karsay; $17 million for Kyle Farnsworth; $8 million for Pedro Feliciano; $4.8 million for Chris Hammond; two ill-fated acquisitions of Javier Vazquez; the 2002 trade of Ted Lilly (who has since gone on to win 129 games in the big leagues) for Jeff Weaver — which later begat two years at $31.4 million for kindly Kevin Brown; the 2007 trade of Tyler Clippard (who has since established himself as an All-Star setup man) to the Nationals for Jonathan Albaladejo.

        Part of Cashman’s problem is that he and his advisers are obsessed with big, tall hard throwers, which Lilly and Clippard aren’t. But, other than Ivan Nova, whom they sent to the minors twice last year and threatened to do so again this spring, they haven’t been able to develop any into front-line major league starters. Phil Hughes continues to disappoint while Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances are both struggling mightily at Triple-A.

        And so, with Pineda out for the year, the Yankees now have $9 million in payroll tied up in three pitchers (Damaso Marte and Feliciano are the others) who will not throw a single pitch for them this year, while they wait for 39-year-old Andy Pettitte to save the rotation. There is, however, one potential salvation for Cashman in the Pineda trade disaster and that is 19-year-old Jose Campos, the hard-throwing Venezuelan righthander he insisted Seattle include in the deal. Campos is currently pitching lights out at low A Charleston (3-0, 1.23 ERA, 23K, 5 walks in 22 IP) and, despite his age, is likely to move up a rung or two in the organization this season. In the words of one scout who works the Venezuelan winter league extensively: “I said at the time, in my opinion, Campos was a better pitcher than Pineda. He’s just a baby, but nothing he’s done has changed my mind. I couldn’t believe Seattle gave him up.”

Still, if Steinbrenner was still around, by the time Campos ever got to the big time, Cashman likely would be consigned to a desk in the ticket operations department, working on his “Murray Cook tan.”

How about we wait a couple of years before we hang Cashman.

"How about we wait a couple of years before we hang Cashman."

He's had 14 years. Nobody wants to hang him and I'm not even sure I want him gone. I simply can't believe he's so beyond criticism for some around here. You say one thing about him, or Sterling, or Arod, or Teixeira and suddenly you're a basher. But you defend Jeter or Torre or Steinbrenner and those SAME posters call you a blind homer.