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May 9, 2012 -- 12:10PM, RobS44 wrote:

 

I agree with you there Ace. I was against the trade not so much because I thought that they shouldn't trade Montero, but because they were trading him for an unproven talent who only had 1 full season in the majors. If the deal was for King Felix or someone like him (Still in their 20's and dominant with experience) I would have been all for it even if it meant including Banuelos and Betances.

The chances of any of those 3(Montero, Banuelos, Betances) having the impact that a King Felix type would have is slim. I guess all we can do at this point is hope that either Pineda or Campos becomes something of value and maybe even more important that Cashman and Co. really start to re evaluate their pitching philosophy\judgement and see that they have to make some changes. I have my doubts that the last part will happen...

That "unproven" talent at least had a full season in the majors.  Montero had, what, all of 60+ ABs.  Even IF Seatlle were willing to move Felix,  the Yanks were not getting him for Montero without a player like Cano as part of the deal.   (keep in mind, Lee was a FA at the end of 2010, Felix is signed, at below market dollars, for a while yet).

Now I know that some folks feel you never trade an every day player, a starter, who can help you every game, for a pitcher who can only help you every 5th day.  But at the end of 2011 most people felt the Yanks had more than enough offense to make the playoffs in 2012 but there were real concerns about having the starting pitching to do so.  How the offense performs in the playoffs is a subject for another discussion, but you won't even get to have it with only one reliable starter (CC) and one you have hopes for (Nova).

So, on that basis, it made sense to trade a POTENTIALLY great MLB DH for a young, hard throwing starting pitcher with some major league success.  For all their blather, I am convinced the Yanks NEVER saw Montero as more than a DH, let alone their long term starting catcher.

This trade could well be a wash,  a good one for both teams, or it could be am real blunder for one or the other.  Noesi could prove to be nothing more than a #6 starter or he could be a legitimate #3.  Montero could show he can catch in the majors and be the second coming of Mike Piazza.  or he could turn out to be a .249 BA, .670 OPS DH.  Pineda could come back strong from the surgery and help anchor the Yanks' rotation for years to come.  or injuries and attitude could turn him into a bust.  Ditto with Campos.

The point is, while Seattle is clearly benefitting from the trade now, we won't know which team got the better of this trade until at least the end of next season.

Well said Rob.

May 7, 2012 -- 12:57PM, theBaron wrote:

May 7, 2012 -- 12:01AM, AceMitchell wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 8:31PM, MurcerFan wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 5:11PM, AceMitchell wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 1:30PM, MurcerFan wrote:

May 6, 2012 -- 12:29PM, hampfan wrote:

I think some of you guys are a little confused and missing what Cashman said during the time of the trade (believe him or not ) and even last season. He said several times last year and during the time of the trade that the Yankees thought that Montero could catch on the major league level. They could have kept him and worked his catching in slowly to see how and if he progresses.

That's where I disagree with you. I think Cashman and/or certain members of the FO (e.g., Michaels, I bet) influencing him were trying to juice up Montero's trade value from the get-go. Cashman's statements to the contrary were mostly aimed to increase JM's value on the market, until that time when he could trade him for what he deemed a very good deal. Now his comments abt Montero are post factum rationalizations to justify what he did. There was never any definitive "He's off the table for trades" statement from Cashman about Montero. There ought to have been. Teams just shouldn't trade their best hitting prospects, but instead find ways to make room for them on the big roster. IMO. Anyway, most of us knew (and some here even wished) that JM was being airlifted for a trade sooner or later, which is why I kept hoping and stating for us not to go in that direction. But Cashman did.

Of course they were gonna try to pump up his trade value, that's what all teams do. But it wasn't just Cashman, I even read from guys like Keith Law and others that the Yankees truly thought that Montero could catch in the major leagues even though most scouts did not. It wasn't just about getting other teams interested. It just seemed that Cashman and the front office philosophy was to do everything they could do to get as much premier pitching as they could even if it meant trading away a potential great position player. They saw his value as greater in the trade market. The idea that they had no patience with him is just not true.

You are never going to hear a "he's off the table" about an offensive player unless he is already established like Cano. They are just much less important and much easy to aquire than premier pitchers. The idea that teams shouldn't just trade away their top hitting propects, is more related to fans wanting to see players come up through their system and feel like they are their guys then if it is the right or wrong thing to do.

 Each situation/player is different. Everyone would like to have a team that is mostly from their farm system, but most Yankee fans have no patience when it comes to young players unlesss they succeed right away.

 I didn't like the trade either, but almost all of the reaction now is Monday morning quarterbacking do to the injury. If Pineada was not injured and was pitching well, you wouldn't have any threads like this.

That's only the ppl that were in favor or the trade and then jumped ship after every piece of bad news that came out. I'm sure there were ppl against the trade from day one the more they found out about MP.

I agree with you there Ace. I was against the trade not so much because I thought that they shouldn't trade Montero, but because they were trading him for an unproven talent who only had 1 full season in the majors. If the deal was for King Felix or someone like him (Still in their 20's and dominant with experience) I would have been all for it even if it meant including Banuelos and Betances.

The chances of any of those 3(Montero, Banuelos, Betances) having the impact that a King Felix type would have is slim. I guess all we can do at this point is hope that either Pineda or Campos becomes something of value and maybe even more important that Cashman and Co. really start to re evaluate their pitching philosophy\judgement and see that they have to make some changes. I have my doubts that the last part will happen...

I have my doubts as well. when it comes to pitching for whatever reason they aren't good at it. Hopefully they can get a couple of good pitchers from the group they have at the moment especially with the 189 goal that they want to implement.

hi ACE ! ... injuries just happen ..if the injury was there B4 the trade..then either a tech, or Doctor missed it ..Cash is saying it happened after ..well if thats the case it's just a bad break for the yankees.  cashman needs to find a # 4 & #5 ... simple right ? 

True injuries but I think the larger issue is how they evaluate and develop pitching.

May 9, 2012 -- 12:10PM, RobS44 wrote:

 

I agree with you there Ace. I was against the trade not so much because I thought that they shouldn't trade Montero, but because they were trading him for an unproven talent who only had 1 full season in the majors. If the deal was for King Felix or someone like him (Still in their 20's and dominant with experience) I would have been all for it even if it meant including Banuelos and Betances.

The chances of any of those 3(Montero, Banuelos, Betances) having the impact that a King Felix type would have is slim. I guess all we can do at this point is hope that either Pineda or Campos becomes something of value and maybe even more important that Cashman and Co. really start to re evaluate their pitching philosophy\judgement and see that they have to make some changes. I have my doubts that the last part will happen...

That "unproven" talent at least had a full season in the majors.  Montero had, what, all of 60+ ABs.  Even IF Seatlle were willing to move Felix,  the Yanks were not getting him for Montero without a player like Cano as part of the deal.   (keep in mind, Lee was a FA at the end of 2010, Felix is signed, at below market dollars, for a while yet).

Now I know that some folks feel you never trade an every day player, a starter, who can help you every game, for a pitcher who can only help you every 5th day.  But at the end of 2011 most people felt the Yanks had more than enough offense to make the playoffs in 2012 but there were real concerns about having the starting pitching to do so.  How the offense performs in the playoffs is a subject for another discussion, but you won't even get to have it with only one reliable starter (CC) and one you have hopes for (Nova).

So, on that basis, it made sense to trade a POTENTIALLY great MLB DH for a young, hard throwing starting pitcher with some major league success.  For all their blather, I am convinced the Yanks NEVER saw Montero as more than a DH, let alone their long term starting catcher.

This trade could well be a wash,  a good one for both teams, or it could be am real blunder for one or the other.  Noesi could prove to be nothing more than a #6 starter or he could be a legitimate #3.  Montero could show he can catch in the majors and be the second coming of Mike Piazza.  or he could turn out to be a .249 BA, .670 OPS DH.  Pineda could come back strong from the surgery and help anchor the Yanks' rotation for years to come.  or injuries and attitude could turn him into a bust.  Ditto with Campos.

The point is, while Seattle is clearly benefitting from the trade now, we won't know which team got the better of this trade until at least the end of next season.

Pineda is an unproven talent. He has great stuff and had a great 1st half of last year but then had a 5.12 era after the all-star break. That's not enough time to judge what kind of pitcher he is going to ultimately be. Montero is also an unproven hitter but I think it's much easier to judge what a hitter could be when they are mashing at every level. Could he turn into a 249 hitter ? Sure it could happen. But the odds are much better that he succeeds than a pitcher with 1 year of experience.

I'm aware of the fact that Seattle was not going to trade Felix. Again I wasn't against trading Montero, I just think that he was a very valuable trade chip and they did not need to trade him asap. Maybe Pineda\Campos was the best they could get, but maybe if they held him longer they could have got a better deal elsewhere. There really was no urgent need to make that trade when they did.

 The main point was also that the Yankees have not done well evaluating, developing, trading or signing pitching in recent years. Some of it has been bad luck, but a lot has been poor decision making. So I think people are starting to assume this deal will not work out because they don't have a good track record lately.

 And it will take a lot longer than the end of next season to evaulate this deal. If Campos makes it to the majors it may not be until 2014 or later.

Hopefully Pineda and or Campos can make the starting rotation and then the deal could still be a good one for the Yanks.