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Excuse me for kicking a guy while he's down but...
13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 2:14AM #1
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 2,070

One thing kept jumping out at me last season that seems to have carried over to this season, the fact that although Russell Martin is reported to be a fine defensive catcher our pitchers seem to perform better with the back-up.  This has been especially true when it comes to veteran pitchers.  I took the time to hunt the stats and found that in his Yankee career Martin has a .548 winning percentage in his starts (86-71), his previous back-up Cervelli has a .610 winning percentage in his starts with the Yankees (86-55), and Francisco's replacement has a .615 winning percentage as a Yankee (8-5).  I was skeptical about Martin returning to form last year until he shut me up with his April performance with the bat and on the bases but he only had one other month like that and when the season was over although he had 18 home runs, he also had enough unproductive stretches that his back-up Cervelli had a slightly better Runs Created per Game than him and that is the single stat that I think is most telling about an offensive performance because it factors in base running and doubleplays.

Over the offseason the Yankees offered Martin $20 million for three more years and he balked at that.  That's only one season removed from the Dodgers asking him to play 3rd or the corner outfield instead of catch or else receive his unconditional release.  This year Russell is making $7.5 million and has yet to cross the Mendoza line with a quarter of the season behind us.  That brings us to his back-ups, Cervelli was a serviceable back-up with the bat but defensively he was terrible at holding runners, he didn't prevent the ball from getting past him, and he moved alot behind the plate which are all poor attributes for a catcher but he had infectious energy behind the plate and our pitchers seemed to respond well to it.  Martin on the other hand could pick off runners at the league average and framed pitches well although he still allowed alot of pitches to get by him.  The thing is for the most part the pitchers just worked better as a battery with Cervelli than Martin, so much so that he was the unofficial person catcher for a few of them.  Now Cervelli is out of the picture and our back-up is a guy that only plays pro ball at any level because of his work behind the plate.  Chris Stewart can't hit better than the average pitcher, never has/never will but he is a major leaguer because he does everything behind the plate right.

When Stewart had to cover a long stretch when Posey went down in San Francisco all of the pitchers performed much better with him behind the plate than Buster or any other catcher they tried but Stewart couldn't hit.  If the choice is between Posey and Stewart it is a no brainer but between Stewart and Martin I have to question why Martin with all his and the pitchers' struggles is still catching 3/4s of the games.  Are we that invested in him?  I thought he was a stop gap between the quality young catchers we have on the way.   Hughes and Boone Logan are the only two pitchers that have not responded well with Stewart behind the plate when given the chance and let's face it, Hughes hasn't consistantly responded well under any set of circumstances for a long time.  Here is how opponents have done with Stewart, Martin, and Cervelli catching Yankee pitching.

  Chris Stewart Russell Martin Francisco Cervelli  
Pitcher ERA/PA/AVG/OBP/SLG ERA/PA/AVG/OBP/SLG ERA/PA/AVG/OBP/SLG  
Sabathia 3.03/245/.223/.284/.384 3.34/613/.263/.313/.384 2.98/1097/.230/.285/.336  
Nova Have not worked together 4.17/770/.268/.331/.439 4.74/311/.279/.353/.431  
Kuroda 0.00/27/.154/.185/.154 3.86/1736/.257/.306/.385 Have not worked together  
Hughes 7.71/65/.293/.369/.655 5.71/415/.291/.340/.487 6.30/320/.318/.365/.474  
Pettitte 0.00/29/.148/.179/.148 4.87/84/.291/.325/.544 3.17/357/.251/.299/.416  
Garcia 0.00/4/.250/.250/.250 4.45/627/.286/.340/.464 2.57/58/.245/.281/.377  
Phelps Have not worked together 2.70/141/.236/.309/.415 Have not worked together  
Wade 0.00/19/.118/.211/.176 3.08/523/.225/.273/.359 1.04/32/.161/.188/.323  
Logan 18.00/21/.400/.429/.600 2.36/215/.241/.310/.372 3.16/117/.298/.376/.433  
Soriano 3.86/10/.300/.300/.400 3.25/191/.216/.311/.335 1.50/22/.250/.318/.250  
Robertson 0.00/9/.111/.111/.111 1.15/272/.176/.288/.240 2.40/204/.230/.323/.316  
Rapada 0.00/2/.000/.000/.000 4.15/52/.214/.353/.333 Have not worked together  
Eppley 0.00/4/.000/.250/.000 3.72/41/.278/.366/.361 Have not worked together  


While we are trying to get our footing why not allow the pitchers that have been performing well with Stewart behind the plate to keep that winning formula?  Why not allow Nova the opportunity to pitch to a superior backstop while he is struggling?  Maybe Garcia can recapture what he had with Cervelli last year with Stewart because he didn't pitch well to Martin last year either.  Make Martin Hughes' personal catcher for the time being and they can focus like a lazer together on how to get out of the dog house.  La Russa committed to Yadier Molina behind the plate long before he was an offensive asset and I understand that was different because they did expect that he would eventually be the elite hitter that he currently is but when we don't have the ideal pieces why not get the most we can out of what we have?  Our manager wasn't exactly an elite offensive weapon in his playing days but he knew what his priorities were.  He should still be looking out for the pitchers by pairing them with the best catcher on the bench and that is currently Stewart.  I think that both Cervelli and Stewart are on the same page with the pitchers more than Martin but as far as range, framing the pitch, and controlling the running game Stewart has the stats to back it up.  Martin had caught 39% of base runners once in his career in 2010, that is Stewart's career average.


The way Martin is playing even with the walks there is no way he should get a 3/$20 million plus deal from the Yankees but if we have him catch 120 plus games what choice will they have?

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 7:23AM #2
TheStripes
Posts: 1,547

I enjoyed the reading LL, thanks for taking time to put it together. I was surprised that Martin had turned down the Yankees offer. I'd like to see him sign under favorable terms but if he doesn't I'm not concerned, Cashman will find someone to fill the void.

The Lord will either calm your storm . . .  or allow it to rage while
       He calms you. ~ unknown
13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 8:17AM #3
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 2,070

I just pointed out pitchers that are still on the staff, it was clear that Colon also was great with Cervelli and barely serviceable with Martin even before he showed the fatigue from pitching winter ball after not pitching a full season for years.  This is the same with Stewart and Posey, Tim Lincecum has an ERA over a full run lower with Stewart and has been terrible this season with Posey catching all but one of his games and prior to Buster getting hurt he even demonstrated a preference to Bengie Molina.  Posey's bat makes a compelling argument for keeping him in the line-up but we are four full seasons removed from Martin putting together a good offensive season from start to finish.


There have been several threads on this board where posters have waxed poetic about Martin's superior defense and past gold glove accolades superseding his offense but shouldn't how a pitcher performs with a catcher as opposed to the available alternatives be a factor as well in how we evaluate him?  I have seen people argue that Posada's pitch selection was irrelevant or that Montero's catching should have little impact on professional pitchers because they alone are responsible for their performances but when we rely so much on pitching do we want them to feel alone out there?  Sabathia was gushing over not needing to shake off Stewart, couldn't having your battery mate reinforce you out there have a positive impact on performance?

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 9:43AM #4
yank0428
Posts: 3,956

I was for bringing Martin back and signing him to a longer deal but I think he made a real bad decision turning the Yanks down. Someone on another thread mentioned he's not the same hitter because of injuries but he looks healthy to me. He was a former Silver Slugger .His average has dropped every year since 2007. I know it must be frustrating to him and it's not from a lack of effort but you have to hit better then he has this year for the Yanks. I thought last year was his bottom and he was just adjusting to a new league but maybe not. If this continues he's probably not back next year and with the way he going is not worth 2 mill a year. Stewart making 482 thou this year and Martin is making 7.5 mill. Not looking good for him next year.

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 9:53AM #5
61in61
Posts: 12,341

If what we are seeing now is the real Martin then he is easily replaceable. Finding a catcher who is good on defense and hits around .250 shouldn't be too difficult to find.

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 9:54AM #6
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 2,070

Jun 1, 2012 -- 9:43AM, yank0428 wrote:


I was for bringing Martin back and signing him to a longer deal but I think he made a real bad decision turning the Yanks down. Someone on another thread mentioned he's not the same hitter because of injuries but he looks healthy to me. He was a former Silver Slugger .His average has dropped every year since 2007. I know it must be frustrating to him and it's not from a lack of effort but you have to hit better then he has this year for the Yanks. I thought last year was his bottom and he was just adjusting to a new league but maybe not. If this continues he's probably not back next year and with the way he going is not worth 2 mill a year. Stewart making 482 thou this year and Martin is making 7.5 mill. Not looking good for him next year.





I'm discounting the offense for now.  It was important that Martin came in and hit like he did in April last year to smooth the transition from Posada but what about our pitchers?  I figured there were a few young guys like Nova that responded well to Martin behind the plate last year but that has evaporated this season.  It seems to me that our pitchers would simply pitch better to Stewart than to Martin and unless if Martin can hit like he did in his first three seasons it's a no brainer that he should be riding the bench and Stewart should be working with the staff even if Stewart's dismal offensive numbers so far represent the upper end of the spectrum of what we can hope from him.

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 10:03AM #7
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 2,070

Jun 1, 2012 -- 9:53AM, 61in61 wrote:


If what we are seeing now is the real Martin then he is easily replaceable. Finding a catcher who is good on defense and hits around .250 shouldn't be too difficult to find.





Finding a catcher to hit .250 isn't the problem.  Cervelli did that the last three seasons and is doing that now in AAA.  What I think should be focused on is the fact that the Yankee team ERA is 4.54 with Martin and 2.80 so far with Stewart in 2012.  Granted Stewart catches Sabathia but shouldn't we be asking why that is?  Sabathia is not the only pitcher on the staff responding positively to the alternative and unless if we have a shot at a Posada type offensive catcher I think the wise move would be to go with the best backstop we have and all metrics show that Stewart is one of the elites.  If we are going to settle for a catcher below the Mendoza line it should at least be our best defensive catcher.  Part of signing Kuroda was Martin's familiarity with him but when we were forced to have Stewart catch both him and Pettitte they both ansered with their best peformances of the year.  Am I saying that Kuroda and Pettitte will keep putting up zeros for eight innings an outing with Stewart behind the plate?  Of course not but I am saying without a doubt they will pitch better to Stewart than to Martin.

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 10:07AM #8
BigGuy
Posts: 37,975

Great post LL.  I have a hard time thinking the Yankees will invest the money in Martin next offseason unless his bat really wakes up from here on out.  They could just as easily go with Stewart and Cervelli if they can't find a suitable replacement, and save money in the process.  They thought they had the replacement in Romine, but he has a bad disc in his back and won't be back until at least July.  I have real doubts about his future behind the plate with that injury.  This is the 2nd year in a row he's had the same problem.  That doesn't bode well for a catcher. 

"Never seen a payroll on a ring"              "Leave the gun,  take the cannoli "
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 10:14AM #9
yank0428
Posts: 3,956

Jun 1, 2012 -- 9:54AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Jun 1, 2012 -- 9:43AM, yank0428 wrote:


I was for bringing Martin back and signing him to a longer deal but I think he made a real bad decision turning the Yanks down. Someone on another thread mentioned he's not the same hitter because of injuries but he looks healthy to me. He was a former Silver Slugger .His average has dropped every year since 2007. I know it must be frustrating to him and it's not from a lack of effort but you have to hit better then he has this year for the Yanks. I thought last year was his bottom and he was just adjusting to a new league but maybe not. If this continues he's probably not back next year and with the way he going is not worth 2 mill a year. Stewart making 482 thou this year and Martin is making 7.5 mill. Not looking good for him next year.





I'm discounting the offense for now.  It was important that Martin came in and hit like he did in April last year to smooth the transition from Posada but what about our pitchers?  I figured there were a few young guys like Nova that responded well to Martin behind the plate last year but that has evaporated this season.  It seems to me that our pitchers would simply pitch better to Stewart than to Martin and unless if Martin can hit like he did in his first three seasons it's a no brainer that he should be riding the bench and Stewart should be working with the staff even if Stewart's dismal offensive numbers so far represent the upper end of the spectrum of what we can hope from him.



I'm all for Stewart getting more playing time but Girardi is pretty slow to make a move like that even with with his desire to have a good defensive catcher and game caller. You would think it would happen sooner then later but I will be surprised if he makes the move. Martin will have to still be under .200 by mid July for him to do it.

13 months ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 10:34AM #10
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 2,070

Jun 1, 2012 -- 10:07AM, BigGuy wrote:


Great post LL.  I have a hard time thinking the Yankees will invest the money in Martin next offseason unless his bat really wakes up from here on out.  They could just as easily go with Stewart and Cervelli if they can't find a suitable replacement, and save money in the process.  They thought they had the replacement in Romine, but he has a bad disc in his back and won't be back until at least July.  I have real doubts about his future behind the plate with that injury.  This is the 2nd year in a row he's had the same problem.  That doesn't bode well for a catcher. 





Thanks BG, you are more of a talent evaluator than I could hope to be.  I just felt like I was seeing something over the last few seasons and searched for the numbers to reinforce it.  They are hard to find even with Sabremetric stats out there because nobody records how the pitchers a catcher catches performs.  Probably because it is comparing apples to oranges unless if you are comparing the same pitchers at the same points in their careers.  Baseball Reference fortunately shows how pitchers have worked with catchers in their splits section and that is where I found the stats.  To look at all of them the argument seems more compelling but it is so hard to post stats on this board.  What does your gut say about Stewart?  Although there have been the occasional passed balls he looks as good behind the plate as anyone I've seen in years and the numbers back that up.  I could live with the loss of offense until a guy like Sanchez is ready if our staff is firing on all cylinders with a defensive wiz like Stewart but Yankee fans would probably want to string up the veteran unknown for the predictably abysmal offense he would provide.

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