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Hall of Fame shutout!!!!
2 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 1:24PM #51
ninja108
Posts: 4,118

Jan 13, 2013 -- 8:55AM, NW wrote:


Biggio is not the first 3000 hit player to not get selected on the first ballot.  He'll almost certainly get in next year.  In my opinion, given his position, Piazza is more deserving of a first ballot.  The one thing that I find hypocritical about the baseball writers is that THEY, in fact, knew that steroid use was rampant in MLB locker rooms and they turned a deaf ear on it.  I understand that writing on the topic would probably put their career in jeopardy but they simply cannot justify doing nothing then and preaching that they are the protectors of the game's integrity now.  


The Baseball HOF is not an entity owned by MLB; it is a private corporation.  Therefore they are not bound by the agreement that MLB signed with the MLBPA regarding release of steroid tests.  The best idea I've heard to eliminate the suspicion and whispers is to require all players wishing to be on a HOF ballot to authorize release of all tests conducted.  A positive test will not disqualify an individual but it will allow the player to be voted on based on true and accurate information.  If a "dirty" player is deemed to have HOF credentials despite his missteps, no asteriks, just like Gaylord Perry.  





 That's what burns me the most. The past couple of weeks,I've had to hear garbage logic from writers like Tom Verducci and Bill Madden explaining how tampering with equipment or taking greenies/ uppers and downers was simply gamesmenship instead of cheating. You also have to hear from players like Goose Gossage who claim players in his era were complete angels.


 Complete and utter bull from all of them. There were dirty players in the steroid era no doubt but to paint all of them with this brush that they want to do..nope.

2 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 1:58PM #52
laurenfrances
Posts: 19,476

Jan 13, 2013 -- 1:24PM, ninja108 wrote:


Jan 13, 2013 -- 8:55AM, NW wrote:


Biggio is not the first 3000 hit player to not get selected on the first ballot.  He'll almost certainly get in next year.  In my opinion, given his position, Piazza is more deserving of a first ballot.  The one thing that I find hypocritical about the baseball writers is that THEY, in fact, knew that steroid use was rampant in MLB locker rooms and they turned a deaf ear on it.  I understand that writing on the topic would probably put their career in jeopardy but they simply cannot justify doing nothing then and preaching that they are the protectors of the game's integrity now.  


The Baseball HOF is not an entity owned by MLB; it is a private corporation.  Therefore they are not bound by the agreement that MLB signed with the MLBPA regarding release of steroid tests.  The best idea I've heard to eliminate the suspicion and whispers is to require all players wishing to be on a HOF ballot to authorize release of all tests conducted.  A positive test will not disqualify an individual but it will allow the player to be voted on based on true and accurate information.  If a "dirty" player is deemed to have HOF credentials despite his missteps, no asteriks, just like Gaylord Perry.  





 That's what burns me the most. The past couple of weeks,I've had to hear garbage logic from writers like Tom Verducci and Bill Madden explaining how tampering with equipment or taking greenies/ uppers and downers was simply gamesmenship instead of cheating. You also have to hear from players like Goose Gossage who claim players in his era were complete angels.


 Complete and utter bull from all of them. There were dirty players in the steroid era no doubt but to paint all of them with this brush that they want to do..nope.




+2

Always proud to be a Yankee fan.

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 6:06PM #53
FW57Clipper51
Posts: 11,419

Jan 13, 2013 -- 7:53AM, ninja108 wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 3:48PM, FW57Clipper51 wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:09AM, qwik3457 wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 5:47PM, FW57Clipper51 wrote:


The members of 1919 Black Sox World Series fix were ruled not guilty by a court of law, but MLB Commissioner Landis decided to over rule the court's decision. Yet he allowed future HOF Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb  to retire from the game in 1929 rather than ban them from the game after they were found to be betting on games while members of the A's.


Clipper





It was obvious the 1919 World Series was fixed; the players' confessions were stolen from the possession of the DA. In any event, the Cobb and Speaker accusations were settled in early 1927, when their accuser would not appear to tell his story to Landis at hearings scheduled on the matter. They were both removed as managers of their teams, but they were both allowed to play for another 2 years.




Quik,


Thanks for the information. It would be nice if someone wrote a book on Judge Landis because of his legal experience alot of his baseball decisions helped baseball, especially with contracts. He hated the MLB  teams taking over the minor leagues with their farm systems and destorying the independence of the teams. He wasn't a saint, but he did help the game when it needed it.


Clipper






 Maybe in some respects but he was a hardcore racist that deprived the game of players like Satchel Paige and so many others. If Landis had his way,players like Willie Mays,Jackie Robertson,Hank Aaron etc would never have played in professional baseball. He might have cleaned up corruption in baseball but he was a hardcore racist,period.




 Sadly Racism was part of the thought of many of the baseball executives of that era besides MLB Commissioner Judge Landis, which existed up to the mid-1950's, people like the Yankees GM George Weiss or Phillies GM Herb Pennock, his 1948 Phillies Manager Ben Chapman or teams like the Red Sox and Tigers teams Ownership, the last 2 MLB teams to break MLB player color barrier in 1959.

The MLB players who played against the black players in barn storming tours and winter ball leagues, knew of their great playing skills. A few baseball executives were open minded about it, like the Indians and Browns Owner Bill Veck, Dodgers Branch Rickey, Giants management and Yankees Co-Owner Larry McPhail (1945-1947), who started signing players during his running the Yankees as their GM. Yankees GM George Weiss was so obessed in finding the perfect "Black" Yankee player that he missed out signing Ernie Banks and Roberto Clemente, before he settled for Elston Howard and trading away every black player in the Yankees minor league system including future AL All Star 1B Vic Power, that McPhail had originally signed for the Yankees organization. The next black player that came up from the Yankees organization would be P Al Downing in 1961, a year after GM Weiss left the Yankees front office.


Clipper


http://i50.tinypic.com/vfvbja.jpg


2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 8:25AM #54
NW
Posts: 7,271

In my opinion, there are different levels of dirty player when it comes to HOF consideration.  There's a difference between the player that (based on what we know) used PED's to make his game like Canseco and one who used PED's in an isolated instance to try to come back from an injury like Pettitte.  They were both wrong but there is certainly a different degree of wrong.  I'm not suggesting either is HOF-worthy or that Pettitte was truthful in what he divulged, but taking his statements as the truth, I would judge the two players differently.  


If I had a vote, I would also treat those who lied and got caught differently.  They discredited the game to the level of the Black Sox and Pete Rose.  I would never be able to place a vote for them.

2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 9:42AM #55
luvdayanks
Posts: 14,714

Jan 9, 2013 -- 4:54PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 3:34PM, laurenfrances wrote:



I took PEDs and I'm not proud of it..but people that think you can take a shot or a pill and play like the legends on that ballot need help.




Well, according to Tufts University physics professor Robert Tobin, the number of homeruns by a skilled player using PED's  increases by 50%.





BFD!!! Who the hell is Professor Robert Tobin that you use his word as gospel that that is true? One man's "opinion" and you believe it? I'd need more evidence than that. That's a typical assumption from you.

2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 1:32PM #56
61in61
Posts: 18,446

Jan 14, 2013 -- 9:42AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 4:54PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 3:34PM, laurenfrances wrote:



I took PEDs and I'm not proud of it..but people that think you can take a shot or a pill and play like the legends on that ballot need help.




Well, according to Tufts University physics professor Robert Tobin, the number of homeruns by a skilled player using PED's  increases by 50%.





BFD!!! Who the hell is Professor Robert Tobin that you use his word as gospel that that is true? One man's "opinion" and you believe it? I'd need more evidence than that. That's a typical assumption from you.





2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 1:39PM #57
luvdayanks
Posts: 14,714

Jan 14, 2013 -- 1:32PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 9:42AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 4:54PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 3:34PM, laurenfrances wrote:



I took PEDs and I'm not proud of it..but people that think you can take a shot or a pill and play like the legends on that ballot need help.




Well, according to Tufts University physics professor Robert Tobin, the number of homeruns by a skilled player using PED's  increases by 50%.





BFD!!! Who the hell is Professor Robert Tobin that you use his word as gospel that that is true? One man's "opinion" and you believe it? I'd need more evidence than that. That's a typical assumption from you.




I'm not trying to prove any kind of point or make any assumption. I'm just pointing out that there is another side to the issue. BFD, who's Paul Lo Duca to say that PED's won't help your game?





It appeared you used that as if it were a statement of fact. I agree BFD who is Paul LaDuca to say PED's wont help your game. Quite frankly I don't think a number can be put on PED's and performance either way, it's just too complex. To say it's 0 or 50% is ludicrous until some real serious testing is done and we know MLB and the players union will never agree to that. Until then it's all conjecture.

2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 2:04PM #58
61in61
Posts: 18,446

Jan 14, 2013 -- 1:39PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 1:32PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 9:42AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 4:54PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 3:34PM, laurenfrances wrote:



I took PEDs and I'm not proud of it..but people that think you can take a shot or a pill and play like the legends on that ballot need help.




Well, according to Tufts University physics professor Robert Tobin, the number of homeruns by a skilled player using PED's  increases by 50%.





BFD!!! Who the hell is Professor Robert Tobin that you use his word as gospel that that is true? One man's "opinion" and you believe it? I'd need more evidence than that. That's a typical assumption from you.




I'm not trying to prove any kind of point or make any assumption. I'm just pointing out that there is another side to the issue. BFD, who's Paul Lo Duca to say that PED's won't help your game?





It appeared you used that as if it were a statement of fact. I agree BFD who is Paul LaDuca to say PED's wont help your game. Quite frankly I don't think a number can be put on PED's and performance either way, it's just too complex. To say it's 0 or 50% is ludicrous until some real serious testing is done and we know MLB and the players union will never agree to that. Until then it's all conjecture.




There is a lot of conjecture but some of the anecdotal evidence would suggest that PED's do enhance performance in some players at least. You won't convince me that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa did what they did from drinking vitamin water. And, on a lesser scale, you have to wonder about a guy like Brady Anderson too. That kind of performance by Anderson just isn't normal.

2 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 2:22PM #59
luvdayanks
Posts: 14,714

Jan 14, 2013 -- 2:04PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 1:39PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 1:32PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 14, 2013 -- 9:42AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 4:54PM, 61in61 wrote:


Jan 9, 2013 -- 3:34PM, laurenfrances wrote:



I took PEDs and I'm not proud of it..but people that think you can take a shot or a pill and play like the legends on that ballot need help.




Well, according to Tufts University physics professor Robert Tobin, the number of homeruns by a skilled player using PED's  increases by 50%.





BFD!!! Who the hell is Professor Robert Tobin that you use his word as gospel that that is true? One man's "opinion" and you believe it? I'd need more evidence than that. That's a typical assumption from you.




I'm not trying to prove any kind of point or make any assumption. I'm just pointing out that there is another side to the issue. BFD, who's Paul Lo Duca to say that PED's won't help your game?





It appeared you used that as if it were a statement of fact. I agree BFD who is Paul LaDuca to say PED's wont help your game. Quite frankly I don't think a number can be put on PED's and performance either way, it's just too complex. To say it's 0 or 50% is ludicrous until some real serious testing is done and we know MLB and the players union will never agree to that. Until then it's all conjecture.




There is a lot of conjecture but some of the anecdotal evidence would suggest that PED's do enhance performance in some players at least. You won't convince me that Bonds, McGwire and Sosa did what they did from drinking vitamin water. And, on a lesser scale, you have to wonder about a guy like Brady Anderson too. That kind of performance by Anderson just isn't normal.





Brady Anderson was a one year steroid phenom. I'll tell you who else, Nomar Garciappara. There was one issue of SI he was on the cover in a cut off shirt and he looked like the second coming of Charles Atlas. I'll bet the list is longer than you and I could even guess.

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