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This team has overachieved ...
4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 5:55PM #141
61in61
Posts: 26,516

Sep 14, 2015 -- 5:02PM, qwik3457 wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 2:36PM, 61in61 wrote:



What do you mean no? The last time I checked 5/11 + 12/11 = 17/22. So against the better teams they have a losing record.


I think you just contrdicted yourself on my point about making trades for the future. You said:"They make moves, or don't make them, based on what they think the moves will do this season, and in the near-future." Then you go on to say that not trading the top prospects is part of the long road back to building an elite club. So which is your position? Clubs only make moves for "this season and the near future" or the moves are "part of a long road back" to an elite club. You can't have it both ways.


Not every prospect works out and if you get quality back where is the harm? The Yanks have traded good prospects in the past and got good quality in return.


I'm not solely blaming Cashman but its easier to just use his name as symbol of the mismanagement permeating the team. The failure to sign an elite starting pitcher during the offseason was a mistake. It only costs money, not top prospects. They have also failed to sign any of the better Cuban propsects which would have only cost mosney. The failure to make some upgrades at the trade deadline was a mistake. So what if you overpay a little? Maybe Cashman just has an obsession about not paying one dime more than what a player is worth. Remember how he balked at giving up Nunez to Seattle in the Cliff Lee deal? That whole deal was scuttled and maybe the whole season was lost just over Nunez?


I'm also not convinced that the Yanks couldn't have improved the team without giving up any top prospects.




The post I replied to said not that they had a losing record against the other playoff teams, it said they were regularly getting their rear ends handed to them by the other playoff teams. Which is not true, and which was what I  was replying to. That's what no means. Two things about this; they're actually 2-5 vs. the Rangers, so they're 11-12 against the other playoff teams, but the Twins are a game behind the Rangers, and if they pass them, the Yanks are 5-1 against the Twins, so they would then be 14-8 against the other playoff teams. In addition, you know who's way under .500 against the other playoff teams they've played? The Mets, who are 8-22 against playoff teams so far this year.


The bit about near-future and playing for the long term is not contradictory; teams trade prospects for veterans in order to cash in the long term for the now, as the Royals did in trading Finnegan and Lamb for Cueto, as the Jays did in trading Norris for Price, as the Mets did in trading Fulmer for Cespides, as the Astros did in trading Hader, Santana, and Phillips for Gomez and Fiers, or Nottingham for Kazmir. Each of those teams had built up strong farm systems, had a surplus of prospects, and felt they were close enough to go for it. The Yanks envisioned a new team with Severino leading the rotation, Judge in right, and Bird at 1st, starting in 2017. The team says they were asked for two of these prosects for just about any of these pitchers mentioned above. If you hold the prospects, you're playing long-term; if you cash them, you're playing short term. The harm is that all four of these teams traded for guys who are gone at the end of the year. For any of them, if they don't win it all, they've spent good prospects on an asset that burns up at the end of the year. Three of these teams will be wrong. 


Sometimes, you do have to trade something of value to win it all, but ask yourself this: did you think, before this season, that the Yankees were a World Series title contender? Did you think it when they were 8 games ahead? Do you think it now? I have thought about that, and at no time did I think the Yanks had more than a tiny chance to win it all this year. To me, burning the top prospects for a Price or a Cueto seems quixotic, a very very low percentage move.


Could they have done something to get them some help? Maybe, but the starting pitchers that represented a major upgrade was a market beyond what they were willing to pay; the only worthwhile 2nd baseman available was Zobrist, and Beene was demanding the top prospects for him. They tried to take on a bad contract AND give up a top prospect in Mateo for Kimbrel; the Padres wouldn't by it. They thought they had a surplus of middle and mop-up relievers at Scranton, none of them has stepped forward so far.


For what it's worth, I agree about not signing a big time starter in the off-season; I'd have gone after Lester. But Hal has the vault closed, for now.




Yeah, I always think the Yanks are World Series contenders. Even in 1965 I thought that Yankee magic would get them to the WS.


KC gave up Brooks and Sean Manaea for Zobrist. Couldn't the Yanks match that offer? How about Clippard going to the Mets for Casey Meisner?


The fact that none of those relievers from Scranton has panned out leads me to believe that maybe the Yankees overvalue their prospects and thats why they have difficulty making trades.

4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 8:59PM #142
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:13AM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 11:20PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:53PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:43PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

We were 9 games up in the loss column in late July. Anyone's preseason hopes or prognostications are completely irrelevant. This group has gagged away a promising season and allowed a group of showboat punks to embarrass us. If you find silver linings to this I applaud you. I do not applaud the team however. I'm ticked off.



Again, this team over-achieved in July ... they are coming down to earth and it is driving many of us crazy to watch ... hopefully they will turn it around again ... there is still time.



And the FO should have rewarded that overachievement with some help.




There's been a lot of generalities tossed about in this thread. So, Let me ask you, Davis. Specifically where or WHO over acheived this season...ARod excluded. I agree they shouldve/couldve gottne some help for the right "price" but wheres all the overachievement we've been reading about here. 



I didn't create the thread, why you asking me?  But I'd say Tex, Arod (You can't exclude him), Didi after May...  Really, the team as a whole wasn't expected to do a whole lot. Maybe the declines of a couple guys slowed down... Hard to pin it down, but the important thing is that they needed holes filled, and the FO said FU... Does that answer your question?

4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:00PM #143
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Sep 14, 2015 -- 5:46PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

I admit I wanted Scherzer. Still do.



Ditto.  And PLEASE dnt include me in the March doomsdayers.   Neve was there, still,isnt among them.  

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:03PM #144
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:37AM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:23AM, yankeeoldfan wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:13AM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 11:20PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:53PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:43PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

We were 9 games up in the loss column in late July. Anyone's preseason hopes or prognostications are completely irrelevant. This group has gagged away a promising season and allowed a group of showboat punks to embarrass us. If you find silver linings to this I applaud you. I do not applaud the team however. I'm ticked off.



Again, this team over-achieved in July ... they are coming down to earth and it is driving many of us crazy to watch ... hopefully they will turn it around again ... there is still time.



And the FO should have rewarded that overachievement with some help.




There's been a lot of generalities tossed about in this thread. So, Let me ask you, Davis. Specifically where or WHO over acheived this season...ARod excluded. I agree they shouldve/couldve gottne some help for the right "price" but wheres all the overachievement we've been reading about here. 




Over achieved ?? Maybe A-Rod and Tex over achieved from their past season or two, but both had been hurt and in all reality they should have put up numbers like they have .. Did anyone predict A-Rod would hit the way he did after being out of the game for almost two years, no, but the guy is a great athlete, and I believe from playing the game myself, hitting is the last thing to go, defense and foot speed seem to leave quicker with age.. Hitters get smarter with age, and they learn to cheat a little on the fastball, yet they become better hitters to a point as they get a little older.. The only thing I see in getting older and hitting are concerned, the leg speed decreases so a player won't leg out as many hits as he would of when he was younger.. Over Achieving still a question ?? Just my two cents...




exactly....I'll give ARod the pass based on his being out for more than a season.  ARid aside, evry starting player either played as they SHOULD have or underachieved. The entire starting rotation underachived based on injury and/or not being able to go past 5-6 innings. The BP is breaking down to being over WORKED. Only way i see this team OVER achieving is IF you were a fan who FELT, they wouldnt do well, at the beginning of the season and are now suprpised that they are where they are. 



Then they exceeded expectations... What's a few misplaced letters between rednecks???

4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:07PM #145
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:38AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:36AM, yankeeoldfan wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:30AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:23AM, yankeeoldfan wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:13AM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 11:20PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:53PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:43PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

We were 9 games up in the loss column in late July. Anyone's preseason hopes or prognostications are completely irrelevant. This group has gagged away a promising season and allowed a group of showboat punks to embarrass us. If you find silver linings to this I applaud you. I do not applaud the team however. I'm ticked off.



Again, this team over-achieved in July ... they are coming down to earth and it is driving many of us crazy to watch ... hopefully they will turn it around again ... there is still time.



And the FO should have rewarded that overachievement with some help.




There's been a lot of generalities tossed about in this thread. So, Let me ask you, Davis. Specifically where or WHO over acheived this season...ARod excluded. I agree they shouldve/couldve gottne some help for the right "price" but wheres all the overachievement we've been reading about here. 




Over achieved ?? Maybe A-Rod and Tex over achieved from their past season or two, but both had been hurt and in all reality they should have put up numbers like they have .. Did anyone predict A-Rod would hit the way he did after being out of the game for almost two years, no, but the guy is a great athlete, and I believe from playing the game myself, hitting is the last thing to go, defense and foot speed seem to leave quicker with age.. Hitters get smarter with age, and they learn to cheat a little on the fastball, yet they become better hitters to a point as they get a little older.. The only thing I see in getting older and hitting are concerned, the leg speed decreases so a player won't leg out as many hits as he would of when he was younger.. Over Achieving still a question ?? Just my two cents...




No one expected this team to be 7 games up in July ... they over-achieved!  




Is it more to do with us not expecting us to be the 7 games up, or was it the way the rest of the division played ?? I think it's a little of both.. Everyone had Boston going to the WS, everyone thought the O's would be a force, and the Jays looked better on paper than the way they started the season, all teams either under achieved some or we over achieved ?? What really happened to this division now, the Jay's made some big deals that completely turned their team around and they might be the best team in baseball ??  I guess in about 20 or so games we'll kind of know how the cookie crumbles.. 







Doesn't matter how it happened ... we were 7 games up in July ... hence we over-achieved ... this team is not a team that would normally be 7 games up in July ... so now they have fallen to earth a bit ... and everyone's upset.



It comes down to the fact that the competition improved, and we didn't. No effort to add help. We could understand it if we went down fighting, but this gives everyone a reason to laugh at us. Our management quit on us,and some of us don't appreciate it.

4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:11PM #146
YankeeLoon
Posts: 17,903
That!!!!^^^^
4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:22PM #147
61in61
Posts: 26,516

Sep 14, 2015 -- 9:07PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:38AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:36AM, yankeeoldfan wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:30AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:23AM, yankeeoldfan wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 8:13AM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 11:20PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:53PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 13, 2015 -- 2:43PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

We were 9 games up in the loss column in late July. Anyone's preseason hopes or prognostications are completely irrelevant. This group has gagged away a promising season and allowed a group of showboat punks to embarrass us. If you find silver linings to this I applaud you. I do not applaud the team however. I'm ticked off.



Again, this team over-achieved in July ... they are coming down to earth and it is driving many of us crazy to watch ... hopefully they will turn it around again ... there is still time.



And the FO should have rewarded that overachievement with some help.




There's been a lot of generalities tossed about in this thread. So, Let me ask you, Davis. Specifically where or WHO over acheived this season...ARod excluded. I agree they shouldve/couldve gottne some help for the right "price" but wheres all the overachievement we've been reading about here. 




Over achieved ?? Maybe A-Rod and Tex over achieved from their past season or two, but both had been hurt and in all reality they should have put up numbers like they have .. Did anyone predict A-Rod would hit the way he did after being out of the game for almost two years, no, but the guy is a great athlete, and I believe from playing the game myself, hitting is the last thing to go, defense and foot speed seem to leave quicker with age.. Hitters get smarter with age, and they learn to cheat a little on the fastball, yet they become better hitters to a point as they get a little older.. The only thing I see in getting older and hitting are concerned, the leg speed decreases so a player won't leg out as many hits as he would of when he was younger.. Over Achieving still a question ?? Just my two cents...




No one expected this team to be 7 games up in July ... they over-achieved!  




Is it more to do with us not expecting us to be the 7 games up, or was it the way the rest of the division played ?? I think it's a little of both.. Everyone had Boston going to the WS, everyone thought the O's would be a force, and the Jays looked better on paper than the way they started the season, all teams either under achieved some or we over achieved ?? What really happened to this division now, the Jay's made some big deals that completely turned their team around and they might be the best team in baseball ??  I guess in about 20 or so games we'll kind of know how the cookie crumbles.. 







Doesn't matter how it happened ... we were 7 games up in July ... hence we over-achieved ... this team is not a team that would normally be 7 games up in July ... so now they have fallen to earth a bit ... and everyone's upset.



It comes down to the fact that the competition improved, and we didn't. No effort to add help. We could understand it if we went down fighting, but this gives everyone a reason to laugh at us. Our management quit on us,and some of us don't appreciate it.




The improvement issue extends beyond the regular season too. By not improving the Yankees diminished their chances in the playoffs against an improved Royals team or an improved Jays team?

4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:33PM #148
YankeeLoon
Posts: 17,903
That too!!!^^^^

Though I'm still on record happy they didn't give up the good ones, they still didn't have to (a) do zero and most importantly (b) play like steamy doo doo for the past 45 games.
4 years ago  ::  Sep 14, 2015 - 9:44PM #149
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 14, 2015 -- 2:17PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 2:04PM, newinn wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 1:38PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 1:17PM, newinn wrote:


Sep 14, 2015 -- 1:11PM, TheStripes wrote:


I feel the Yankees are playing on house money. Sure I was disappointed with the BJ series. This team has overcome quite a bit this season and building blocks for a solid foundation going foward.



 All in all I'm very happy with the season.



Go Yankees!!




My feelings also Stripes





I think a lot of us here agreed, New, that this team at the start of the season was an 85-88 win team with an outside shot at the playoffs if all went well. Euphoria set in, at least with me, when they had a 7 game lead but the reality was everyone got on a hot streak together and then they came back down to their level as expected with not a lot of talent to carry them, and then injuries to Tex, Eovaldi and Ellsbury thrown in the mix. It's been a roller coaster ride and I said it before, overall the team is too inconsistent in every aspect of the game to go deep in the playoffs, but stranger things have happened. 


With all the complaining about Cashman and Girardi and Drew and others, they're in a better place than a lot of teams considering what they've had to work with.  To all the myopic Girardi haters, they should take a look at this lineup compared to Toronto and be thankful he has them 3 1/2 games behind a much more talented team, and 4 up in the wild card. IMO Girardi deserves some serious consideration for MOY.




As happy as I was when they hit that high water mark of being 7 up I was never sold they could sustain. Tanka, Tex and Arod certainly exceeded my expectations. Tanaka pitched through what I thought would be a likely season ending injury. Didi had had a better season then most thought he would so I think it's reasonable to think this team overacheived especially in getting the type of prduction from the middle of the order  that we got. I certainly agree Girardi deserves consideration for MOY. I think his last 2 years have been his best. Oh the also got a good year from an old injury prone Beltran. I'm excited for this teams future




Thank you ... I remember where we all were in March, and I don't think there was one of us that expected 7 games up in July ... so that's why it's bothering so many people now ... the team came back down to earth.  I think with this team the way we went into the season, it's a perk being able to go into post-season play in any way, shape or form.  Either way, I think we watched an enjoyable season of baseball ... and even though as Yankee fans we are quite a bit about the post-season ... I'll take having had an enjoyable season of baseball to watch.



If we lost good, hard fought, close games, not many of us would be upset. The way this weekend went was a beat down. When the deadline came and went with no additions, I was concerned. But I never thought the BJs would never have been as good as they have.

4 years ago  ::  Sep 15, 2015 - 12:50AM #150
qwik3457
Posts: 11,956

Sep 14, 2015 -- 5:52PM, Paterson wrote:


   I think we agree, but for the sake of argument, in 2017 is the 3rd baseman still Chase Headley ? Is the left fielder still Brett Gardner ? Is Jacoby Ellsbury still in center and is Brian McCann still the catcher ? If Bird is at first, do you think he will have a better season than Tex did in 2015 ? Will we have a DH who produces more than A Rod did in 2015 ? Do you think that either Betances or Miller will be better in 2017 ? Is Tanaka's arm going to be more durable ?


   The problem with this team is that so many of its best players are at their peak or on the decline. The farm system has improved...but it is not going to replace all the guys I listed. And even when the contracts of Tex, Beltran and even Sabathia and A Rod come off the books, there is little assurance that guys of similar stature will be available on the free agent market.


    It is usually easier to describe a problem than develop a solution. Trading everyone in an attempt to win in 2015 was not the answer. But I understand the anguish of lots of fans after this miserable series with Toronto.




I think I'm assuming the pitching will be better, Ellsbury will be better, the 2nd base problem will be solved, and Bird and Didi might well be better than they are two years from now. I'm assuming Judge will be in right field, producing as much as Beltran, and playing better defensively.


I could be wrong about any or all of it.


Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
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