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This team has overachieved ...
4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 12:24PM #161
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 77,782

Sep 19, 2015 -- 10:33AM, Boys of Autumn wrote:




I've watched the Yankees through thick and thin for 50 years ... so I don't need anyone telling me what we're about ... but if we can't make it this season, I will still be grateful for watching a good season of baseball.




I've followed the Yankees since the 50's.  I like the way you think, Mo, and agree wholeheartedly!  Love your posts!  




Thank you. 




Mo, I respect that you've defended your position so many times in this thread but I completely disagree.  


I have been a Yankee fan since watching Reggie deposit HR#3 into "the black" during the '77 WS.  I am always optimistic the team will find a way to win....and oftentimes discouraged when the team cannot meet my lofty expecxtations.  Regardless, I look at this team and, in typical Yankee fashion, I see a roster filled with name-brand players at almost every position.  And with salaries to match!  This team SHOULD contend no matter what the media "experts" say in the preseason.  


I recognize the Yankees are an older team and have had their share of injuries, but I feel as though they've been perpetual underperformers for much of the past decade.  To me, the whole has not been greater than the sum of its parts.  So, with all due respect, I find it puzzling that some posters are willing to lavish such praise onto Cashman and Girardi.  In my opinion, the Yankee teams for the past several years have been no more competitive than those we had during the '80's when there was a revolving door of GM's and managers.  


Regardless who the GM or manager is, there are going to be good decisions and bad decisions.  I don't expect either of them to be perfect.  Still, Cashman and Girardi have been given more resources than most and, for the better part of their respective reigns, the team has been nothing special.  


Cashman took over a championship-caliber team and, as the roster began to turn over, he proceeded to outspend everyone else over the next 15 years and all we have to show for it is one championship and too many first-round playoff exits.   Simple statistics would seem to suggest to me that if you have the highest salaried roster then you should be able to make the playoffs, and if you can do this often enough then you are likely going to win the world series at least one of those years.  In other words, he's done nothing special.


Regarding Girardi, I don't offer any criticisms of his management but the team has appeared undiscipled and passionless for much of his tenure.  I can never remember a season where I have seen so many routine fly balls drop between outfielders.  And his teams never seem willing to do the little things it takes to win some ballgames.  Perhaps this is a product of the roster that Cashman has constructed and the blame reverts back to him.  I don't know. Still, Girardi has to take some responsibility for the way his team plays on the field.  And, in fairness, we know there are others involved in the organization's decision making besides these two men.


The bottom line is that I believe its time to stop making excuses and its time to start making some substantial organizational changes.





Great post ... appreciate your insight.


Don't think this thread says everything I feel ... I totally respect where you are coming from ... if it were up to  me Cashman would be gone ... I really don't blame Girardi ... he has what Cashman has given him ... but the one thing that kind of disqualifies my wanting to get rid of Cashman is this ... will Hal give the next GM the money to go out and get the resources the team needs?  I think a change in GM should happen ... but also Hal has to open up the purse strings to allow him to do what is necessary to put a winning product on the field.  


4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 12:38PM #162
YankeeLoon
Posts: 17,903
I know Yankee haters call us arrogant and sports writers portray us as spoiled fanbase but I believe it's that attitude that others misconstrue that made the team excellent for so long.  If we lose that attitude both as a fanbase and as management we become like everyone else and everyone else may tolerate 2 championships in 55 years but we are not raising our next generation Yankee fans to accept it. 

It's in our blood and there's nothing wrong with that.
4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 12:46PM #163
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 77,782

Sep 19, 2015 -- 12:38PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

I know Yankee haters call us arrogant and sports writers portray us as spoiled fanbase but I believe it's that attitude that others misconstrue that made the team excellent for so long. If we lose that attitude both as a fanbase and as management we become like everyone else and everyone else may tolerate 2 championships in 55 years but we are not raising our next generation Yankee fans to accept it. It's in our blood and there's nothing wrong with that.



Winning is in our blood ... I know I made this thread ... but don't think it's not killing me seeing us lose.

4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 12:54PM #164
YankeeLoon
Posts: 17,903
Oh this I know fo sho.
4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 11:07PM #165
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 19, 2015 -- 12:24PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 10:33AM, Boys of Autumn wrote:




I've watched the Yankees through thick and thin for 50 years ... so I don't need anyone telling me what we're about ... but if we can't make it this season, I will still be grateful for watching a good season of baseball.




I've followed the Yankees since the 50's.  I like the way you think, Mo, and agree wholeheartedly!  Love your posts!  




Thank you. 





Mo, I respect that you've defended your position so many times in this thread but I completely disagree.  


I have been a Yankee fan since watching Reggie deposit HR#3 into "the black" during the '77 WS.  I am always optimistic the team will find a way to win....and oftentimes discouraged when the team cannot meet my lofty expecxtations.  Regardless, I look at this team and, in typical Yankee fashion, I see a roster filled with name-brand players at almost every position.  And with salaries to match!  This team SHOULD contend no matter what the media "experts" say in the preseason.  


I recognize the Yankees are an older team and have had their share of injuries, but I feel as though they've been perpetual underperformers for much of the past decade.  To me, the whole has not been greater than the sum of its parts.  So, with all due respect, I find it puzzling that some posters are willing to lavish such praise onto Cashman and Girardi.  In my opinion, the Yankee teams for the past several years have been no more competitive than those we had during the '80's when there was a revolving door of GM's and managers.  


Regardless who the GM or manager is, there are going to be good decisions and bad decisions.  I don't expect either of them to be perfect.  Still, Cashman and Girardi have been given more resources than most and, for the better part of their respective reigns, the team has been nothing special.  


Cashman took over a championship-caliber team and, as the roster began to turn over, he proceeded to outspend everyone else over the next 15 years and all we have to show for it is one championship and too many first-round playoff exits.   Simple statistics would seem to suggest to me that if you have the highest salaried roster then you should be able to make the playoffs, and if you can do this often enough then you are likely going to win the world series at least one of those years.  In other words, he's done nothing special.


Regarding Girardi, I don't offer any criticisms of his management but the team has appeared undiscipled and passionless for much of his tenure.  I can never remember a season where I have seen so many routine fly balls drop between outfielders.  And his teams never seem willing to do the little things it takes to win some ballgames.  Perhaps this is a product of the roster that Cashman has constructed and the blame reverts back to him.  I don't know. Still, Girardi has to take some responsibility for the way his team plays on the field.  And, in fairness, we know there are others involved in the organization's decision making besides these two men.


The bottom line is that I believe its time to stop making excuses and its time to start making some substantial organizational changes.





Great post ... appreciate your insight.


Don't think this thread says everything I feel ... I totally respect where you are coming from ... if it were up to  me Cashman would be gone ... I really don't blame Girardi ... he has what Cashman has given him ... but the one thing that kind of disqualifies my wanting to get rid of Cashman is this ... will Hal give the next GM the money to go out and get the resources the team needs?  I think a change in GM should happen ... but also Hal has to open up the purse strings to allow him to do what is necessary to put a winning product on the field.  




I don't get why the last few years we have had to suffer because of MANAGEMENT'S mistakes in the contract department. They have the $ to add the help, why not get some fairly cheap bullpen and 2b help to give this team a fighting chance? That is insanity. Are they intentionally trying to alienate the fan base?  They are doing a good job of it.  It just doesn't make sense...

4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 11:09PM #166
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 19, 2015 -- 12:38PM, YankeeLoon wrote:

I know Yankee haters call us arrogant and sports writers portray us as spoiled fanbase but I believe it's that attitude that others misconstrue that made the team excellent for so long. If we lose that attitude both as a fanbase and as management we become like everyone else and everyone else may tolerate 2 championships in 55 years but we are not raising our next generation Yankee fans to accept it. It's in our blood and there's nothing wrong with that.


    HOF post!  You nailed it, Looon!

4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 11:11PM #167
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Sep 19, 2015 -- 11:07PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 12:24PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 10:33AM, Boys of Autumn wrote:




I've watched the Yankees through thick and thin for 50 years ... so I don't need anyone telling me what we're about ... but if we can't make it this season, I will still be grateful for watching a good season of baseball.




I've followed the Yankees since the 50's.  I like the way you think, Mo, and agree wholeheartedly!  Love your posts!  




Thank you. 





Mo, I respect that you've defended your position so many times in this thread but I completely disagree.  


I have been a Yankee fan since watching Reggie deposit HR#3 into "the black" during the '77 WS.  I am always optimistic the team will find a way to win....and oftentimes discouraged when the team cannot meet my lofty expecxtations.  Regardless, I look at this team and, in typical Yankee fashion, I see a roster filled with name-brand players at almost every position.  And with salaries to match!  This team SHOULD contend no matter what the media "experts" say in the preseason.  


I recognize the Yankees are an older team and have had their share of injuries, but I feel as though they've been perpetual underperformers for much of the past decade.  To me, the whole has not been greater than the sum of its parts.  So, with all due respect, I find it puzzling that some posters are willing to lavish such praise onto Cashman and Girardi.  In my opinion, the Yankee teams for the past several years have been no more competitive than those we had during the '80's when there was a revolving door of GM's and managers.  


Regardless who the GM or manager is, there are going to be good decisions and bad decisions.  I don't expect either of them to be perfect.  Still, Cashman and Girardi have been given more resources than most and, for the better part of their respective reigns, the team has been nothing special.  


Cashman took over a championship-caliber team and, as the roster began to turn over, he proceeded to outspend everyone else over the next 15 years and all we have to show for it is one championship and too many first-round playoff exits.   Simple statistics would seem to suggest to me that if you have the highest salaried roster then you should be able to make the playoffs, and if you can do this often enough then you are likely going to win the world series at least one of those years.  In other words, he's done nothing special.


Regarding Girardi, I don't offer any criticisms of his management but the team has appeared undiscipled and passionless for much of his tenure.  I can never remember a season where I have seen so many routine fly balls drop between outfielders.  And his teams never seem willing to do the little things it takes to win some ballgames.  Perhaps this is a product of the roster that Cashman has constructed and the blame reverts back to him.  I don't know. Still, Girardi has to take some responsibility for the way his team plays on the field.  And, in fairness, we know there are others involved in the organization's decision making besides these two men.


The bottom line is that I believe its time to stop making excuses and its time to start making some substantial organizational changes.





Great post ... appreciate your insight.


Don't think this thread says everything I feel ... I totally respect where you are coming from ... if it were up to  me Cashman would be gone ... I really don't blame Girardi ... he has what Cashman has given him ... but the one thing that kind of disqualifies my wanting to get rid of Cashman is this ... will Hal give the next GM the money to go out and get the resources the team needs?  I think a change in GM should happen ... but also Hal has to open up the purse strings to allow him to do what is necessary to put a winning product on the field.  




I don't get why the last few years we have had to suffer because of MANAGEMENT'S mistakes in the contract department. They have the $ to add the help, why not get some fairly cheap bullpen and 2b help to give this team a fighting chance? That is insanity. Are they intentionally trying to alienate the fan base?  They are doing a good job of it.  It just doesn't make sense...




All this cheap talk is BS Davis. We're the Yankees. Nothing cheap abt being the best franchise in the unievrses history. Spend like sthe kings we are. 

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
4 years ago  ::  Sep 19, 2015 - 11:23PM #168
davis2
Posts: 17,508

Sep 19, 2015 -- 11:11PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 11:07PM, davis2 wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 12:24PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Sep 19, 2015 -- 10:33AM, Boys of Autumn wrote:




I've watched the Yankees through thick and thin for 50 years ... so I don't need anyone telling me what we're about ... but if we can't make it this season, I will still be grateful for watching a good season of baseball.




I've followed the Yankees since the 50's.  I like the way you think, Mo, and agree wholeheartedly!  Love your posts!  




Thank you. 





Mo, I respect that you've defended your position so many times in this thread but I completely disagree.  


I have been a Yankee fan since watching Reggie deposit HR#3 into "the black" during the '77 WS.  I am always optimistic the team will find a way to win....and oftentimes discouraged when the team cannot meet my lofty expecxtations.  Regardless, I look at this team and, in typical Yankee fashion, I see a roster filled with name-brand players at almost every position.  And with salaries to match!  This team SHOULD contend no matter what the media "experts" say in the preseason.  


I recognize the Yankees are an older team and have had their share of injuries, but I feel as though they've been perpetual underperformers for much of the past decade.  To me, the whole has not been greater than the sum of its parts.  So, with all due respect, I find it puzzling that some posters are willing to lavish such praise onto Cashman and Girardi.  In my opinion, the Yankee teams for the past several years have been no more competitive than those we had during the '80's when there was a revolving door of GM's and managers.  


Regardless who the GM or manager is, there are going to be good decisions and bad decisions.  I don't expect either of them to be perfect.  Still, Cashman and Girardi have been given more resources than most and, for the better part of their respective reigns, the team has been nothing special.  


Cashman took over a championship-caliber team and, as the roster began to turn over, he proceeded to outspend everyone else over the next 15 years and all we have to show for it is one championship and too many first-round playoff exits.   Simple statistics would seem to suggest to me that if you have the highest salaried roster then you should be able to make the playoffs, and if you can do this often enough then you are likely going to win the world series at least one of those years.  In other words, he's done nothing special.


Regarding Girardi, I don't offer any criticisms of his management but the team has appeared undiscipled and passionless for much of his tenure.  I can never remember a season where I have seen so many routine fly balls drop between outfielders.  And his teams never seem willing to do the little things it takes to win some ballgames.  Perhaps this is a product of the roster that Cashman has constructed and the blame reverts back to him.  I don't know. Still, Girardi has to take some responsibility for the way his team plays on the field.  And, in fairness, we know there are others involved in the organization's decision making besides these two men.


The bottom line is that I believe its time to stop making excuses and its time to start making some substantial organizational changes.





Great post ... appreciate your insight.


Don't think this thread says everything I feel ... I totally respect where you are coming from ... if it were up to  me Cashman would be gone ... I really don't blame Girardi ... he has what Cashman has given him ... but the one thing that kind of disqualifies my wanting to get rid of Cashman is this ... will Hal give the next GM the money to go out and get the resources the team needs?  I think a change in GM should happen ... but also Hal has to open up the purse strings to allow him to do what is necessary to put a winning product on the field.  




I don't get why the last few years we have had to suffer because of MANAGEMENT'S mistakes in the contract department. They have the $ to add the help, why not get some fairly cheap bullpen and 2b help to give this team a fighting chance? That is insanity. Are they intentionally trying to alienate the fan base?  They are doing a good job of it.  It just doesn't make sense...




All this cheap talk is BS Davis. We're the Yankees. Nothing cheap abt being the best franchise in the unievrses history. Spend like sthe kings we are. 



They can surely afford the role players that would improve the existing team. I know there is a long range plan, but WTF? These players have busted their butts, and didn't get management support.  Despicable.

4 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2015 - 11:56AM #169
qwik3457
Posts: 11,956

Sep 19, 2015 -- 7:57AM, YankeeLoon wrote:

Sometimes I think some of you would rather be "right" about your prognostications than see this team actually win. I wish I could have a gee golly aw shucks attitude about this top to bottom UNDERACHIEVING MESS.



Maybe it's because we don't think it's underachieving.


Maybe we think it's achieving its real potential, especially without Teixeira and Eovaldi.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Sep 20, 2015 - 12:23PM #170
qwik3457
Posts: 11,956

Sep 19, 2015 -- 10:33AM, Boys of Autumn wrote:


 Simple statistics would seem to suggest to me that if you have the highest salaried roster then you should be able to make the playoffs, and if you can do this often enough then you are likely going to win the world series at least one of those years.




People keep saying this, but there's not much factual evidence to back this up:


2014: Dodgers were #1 in payroll; knocked out in the NLDS. Yanks were #1 in the AL, didn't make the playoffs. Phillies were #2 in the NL, didn't make playoffs. Tigers were #2 in the AL; knocked out in ALDS, Red Sox were #3, didn't make the playoffs. The World Series was won by the #3 NL team, the Giants. The AL pennant was won by the #8 AL team, the Royals.


2013: Yanks were #1 in payroll, didn't make playoffs. Dodgers were #1 in the NL, knocked out in NLCS. Phillies were #1 in the NL, didn't make playoffs. Red Sox were #2 in the AL, and won the title. Giants were #2 in the NL, didn't make playoffs. The #3 team in the AL, the Tigers, lost the ALCS, but the #4, 5, and 6 teams didn't make the playoffs. The NL pennant was won by the #3 team, the Cards


2012: Yanks were #1 in payroll, knocked out in ALCS. Phillies were #1 in the NL, didn't make playoffs. Red Sox were #2 in the AL, didn't make playoffs. The Giants were #2 in the NL, and won it all. The #3 team in the AL, the Angels, didn't make playoffs. The #3 team in the NL, the Cards, lost the NLCS. The Tigers, who won the AL pennant, were 4th in the AL in payroll.


2011: The #1 teams in both leagues, the Yanks and Phillies, lost in the Division Series. The Red Sox and Mets were #2 in each league, both missed the playoffs. The Angels and Cubs were #3 in each league, both missed the playoffs. The Cards won it all; they were 5th in the NL in payroll. The Rangers won the AL pennant, they were 7th in payroll in the AL


2010: Yankees and Cubs were #1 in the two leagues. Yanks lost the ALCS, Cubs missed the playoffs. Red Sox and Phillies were #2; Red Sox missed the playoffs, Phillies lost the NLCS. Tigers and Mets were #3; both missed the playoffs. The Giants won it all, they were 5th in the NL in payroll. The Rangers won the AL pennant, they were 14th in payroll in the AL.


The last team to win it all with the highest payroll was the 2009 Yankees. They're also the last team to win even a pennant with the highest payroll.


==========================================================================


Of the 10 #1 payroll teams in the two leagues from 2010-2014, none of them won it all; none of them won even a trip to the World Series. 5 of the 10 didn't even make the playoffs. If you take the Yankees out of this, it's not much better. Then the top payroll teams get one pennant and one World Series: the 2013 Red Sox, but now, 6 of the top 10 don't even make the playoffs, even with a 2nd wild card the last 3 seasons.


Of the 5 World Series won, two were won by #2 payroll teams, and the remainder were won by teams that were 5th, 5th and 3rd in payroll in their respective leagues.  The teams that lost the Series, but won their leagues respective pennants, were 14th, 7th, 4th, 3rd, and 8th.


==========================================================================


The Dodgers have a chance of breaking this trend this year, especially if they can avoid the Cards this time around. But it's just a chance, not a certainty.


Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
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