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10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 11:53AM #31
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,179

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:52AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:47AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




Unless if we have single payers, then doctors hypothetically are public employees and that could become part of the job description.  Obviously some want it to be.




Single payer for the entire Country will never happen.




Wait for the Democratic Primaries.

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 11:54AM #32
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 77,605

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:53AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:49AM, yankoldfan wrote:


Worship ??? The question is do we/you worship ??


Dr's. have a right to turn down someone wanting abortions, it's pretty simple, if the patient is wanting an abortion they will find a Dr. that will do it ...




They do now because they are not government employees.  Under single payer they potentially could be required to as part of their job description




Even if the Country went single payer ... which is never going to happen ... but just for argument sake ... doesn't mean that doctors will be required to commit abortions ... it will still be a choice ... we still live in a free Country.

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 11:57AM #33
bertram
Posts: 10,006

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:02PM #34
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 77,605

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:06PM #35
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,179

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




Under single payer what happens when you want a second opinion?  How do you dole out a finite resource?  Will there be quotas of patients of different economic levels for doctors?  Would you be assigned to a region or a group?  These issues sort themselves out in the marketplace currently.  How would you prevent Trenton patients from overwhelming Princeton?

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:08PM #36
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,179

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:02PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  




Proponents don't want allow individuals to consider it murder on legal grounds.

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:09PM #37
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,179

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:54AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:53AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:49AM, yankoldfan wrote:


Worship ??? The question is do we/you worship ??


Dr's. have a right to turn down someone wanting abortions, it's pretty simple, if the patient is wanting an abortion they will find a Dr. that will do it ...




They do now because they are not government employees.  Under single payer they potentially could be required to as part of their job description




Even if the Country went single payer ... which is never going to happen ... but just for argument sake ... doesn't mean that doctors will be required to commit abortions ... it will still be a choice ... we still live in a free Country.




A little less free as we cede more and more to the government.

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:10PM #38
bertram
Posts: 10,006

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:02PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  




That is up to our lawmakers.  We need to be much more careful about who we put in office.  At this point, the GOP leadership had better be careful what they wish for.  If Roe vs. Wade is overturned by Trump SCOTUS appointees, there will be mass defections of women to the Democratic Party.  The currents are already changing in that direction as the data from the midterms is analyzed.  

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:23PM #39
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,179

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:10PM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:02PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  




That is up to our lawmakers.  We need to be much more careful about who we put in office.  At this point, the GOP leadership had better be careful what they wish for.  If Roe vs. Wade is overturned by Trump SCOTUS appointees, there will be mass defections of women to the Democratic Party.  The currents are already changing in that direction as the data from the midterms is analyzed.  




This will eventually be a law suit.  Someone will demand their personal OBGYN conduct their abortion and the doctor will refuse and refer somewhere else.  How would Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan rule?

10 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:28PM #40
2BBobby
Posts: 3,912

Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.

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