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2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:43PM #41
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 14,579

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 12:44PM #42
bertram
Posts: 6,599

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:43PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.




Making huge profits from public illness is obscene in the first place.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:00PM #43
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 74,526

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:10PM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:02PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  




That is up to our lawmakers.  We need to be much more careful about who we put in office.  At this point, the GOP leadership had better be careful what they wish for.  If Roe vs. Wade is overturned by Trump SCOTUS appointees, there will be mass defections of women to the Democratic Party.  The currents are already changing in that direction as the data from the midterms is analyzed.  




My dream is that more people become Independent thinkers instead of being beholden to a party.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:03PM #44
2BBobby
Posts: 3,071

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:43PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My community is comprised of a high percentage of Medicare recipients. Most, like my wife and I, have supplemental coverage. My PCP happens to be a personal friend. He and the other doctors here love Medicare patients. Like car dealers, what they sacrirfice in profit margin they make up in volume...as do the pharmacy chains.


How about a hybrid system? Single payer would be offered as a Public Option, as was originally suggested. Like Medicare today, health care providers could choose to participate or not. No one, patient or doctor, would be forced to participate. Those who don't could purchase their own insurance in the private marketplace, and receive their health care and prescriptions from non-participating providers.


What percentage of doctors do you estimate would choose to participate? How do you think private insurance companies would like that?

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:04PM #45
bertram
Posts: 6,599

Feb 10, 2019 -- 1:00PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:10PM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:02PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:57AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:41AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:39AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:34AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:21AM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:16AM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Any doctor who says that abortion is against his beliefs, should never be forced to administer the procedure ... we are still a free nation ... that should not be taken away from someone just because they are in the medical field  ... the right to make their own moral choices.




I'd say the right moral choice there is not to become a doctor in the first place.  If a person cannot in good conscience obey the law in certain professional situations, they should opt for a different profession.




It's not consistent with the Hippocratic Oath, I know that is not an official standard.  If that is your stance then I suppose that anestesiologists would have to be willing to euthanize if the law changes to allow assisted suicide or for executions.  That's not an issue now, you hire a person that is willing to perform it at the right price.  Under single payer that will no longer be the case.  For the record I no longer believe in executions.  Not out of sympathy for the criminal but because I don't want their last evil act to be forcing society to murder.  I believe that individual natural rights should be our supreme guidance and if someone infringes upon those rights on others and we are forced to separate them from their liberty we take on the obligation to protect their well being.  Two wrongs don't mak a right.




Let's not make it a Hypocritic Oath.  It's simple...don't enter fields that force you to do lawful things that fly in the face of your moral compass.  If you sincerely believe that legal life begins at conception, for example, you have no business being in the medical profession unless you are willing to make exceptions that follow the law.




What law?  The law does not state that doctors have to commit abortions ... and it never will.




If the law of the land dictates that women have a right to choose, any department in a hospital of a universal healthcare system that is designated as an abortion-providing unit would require those staff members to participate in such procedures.  It will be up to our lawmakers, if they so choose, to provide ways for medical personnel to be able to stay in the field and still avoid being placed in that situation.  The GOP will attempt to trash the whole idea of Medicare For All, for instance, by claiming that there will be no choices like that available.  We have already seen posts like that on this board from anti-abortion advocates. 


If a young person these days is in doubt about the shape of that future, they should choose another profession.  IMO, it's inevitable that we will see Medicare For All or a similar government-run universal system in the near future.  And Republicans have nobody else to blame but themselves and the people they have voted into office.  Their refusal to initially allow a public option as part of the ACA, their refusal to modify the ACA and their efforts to dismantle the ACA with no viable backup plan in place have left millions of Americans in peril.  Millions more are living in fear that they will someday get sick and have no way to pay for care.  The message has been clear for decades...the Republican leadership doesn't care if it means depriving Big Medical and Big Pharma of windfall profits.




No young person needs to change their aspirations to become a doctor because no way are we ever going to tell a doctor that they have to commit murder ... plain and simple.  




That is up to our lawmakers.  We need to be much more careful about who we put in office.  At this point, the GOP leadership had better be careful what they wish for.  If Roe vs. Wade is overturned by Trump SCOTUS appointees, there will be mass defections of women to the Democratic Party.  The currents are already changing in that direction as the data from the midterms is analyzed.  




My dream is that more people become Independent thinkers instead of being beholden to a party.




I'd love for Americans to have more choices than two parties...and a system of runoff elections.  However, the Democratic Party has defended women's rights to choose.  That is clear.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:25PM #46
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 14,579

Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:44PM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:43PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.




Making huge profits from public illness is obscene in the first place.




Yet we don’t have a glut of doctors.  The compensation wasn’t nearly enough to entice me to take on the work, expense, and responsibility so I would say the market dictat compensation.  That is unless we conscrip doctors and I wouldn’t want my life in the hands of a conscript.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:32PM #47
bertram
Posts: 6,599

Feb 10, 2019 -- 1:25PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:44PM, bertram wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:43PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.




Making huge profits from public illness is obscene in the first place.




Yet we don’t have a glut of doctors.  The compensation wasn’t nearly enough to entice me to take on the work, expense, and responsibility so I would say the market dictat compensation.  That is unless we conscrip doctors and I wouldn’t want my life in the hands of a conscript.




Over the decades, there have been plenty of qualified applicants for medical schools who have been turned away as the AMA sought to manipulate the numbers for obvious reasons.  Nobody can tell me that, under a universal healthcare system that subsidizes medical students, we wouldn't have a steady stream of applicants.  

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:44PM #48
Max
Posts: 42,610

Feb 10, 2019 -- 1:03PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:43PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 12:28PM, 2BBobby wrote:


Feb 10, 2019 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I agree but under single payer all doctors would essentially be public employees.  




~~~~~~~~~~~


Not true. Doctors today are not required to accept Medicare patients.




That’s my point 15% are on Medicare and many don’t accept it because reimbursement is lower than private insurance.  Kamala Harris proposed to make single payer work we need to eliminate the private market so 100% would be on a Medicare type system.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My community is comprised of a high percentage of Medicare recipients. Most, like my wife and I, have supplemental coverage. My PCP happens to be a personal friend. He and the other doctors here love Medicare patients. Like car dealers, what they sacrirfice in profit margin they make up in volume...as do the pharmacy chains.


How about a hybrid system? Single payer would be offered as a Public Option, as was originally suggested. Like Medicare today, health care providers could choose to participate or not. No one, patient or doctor, would be forced to participate. Those who don't could purchase their own insurance in the private marketplace, and receive their health care and prescriptions from non-participating providers.


What percentage of doctors do you estimate would choose to participate? How do you think private insurance companies would like that?




Everyone I know that's on Medicare likes it. So do the Drs because they know that they are going to get paid.


I'd say that if there was a Medicare for all Public Option and Private Insurers, within 5 years just about every American would choose the Medicare for all option. 

.
2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 1:54PM #49
bertram
Posts: 6,599

During college, I was forced to make one of those "moral decisions", so I can speak with some authority on the question of whether people should be signing up for a profession that forces them to compromise their own beliefs.  My first choice of career path was Professional Chemistry...an advanced program with stringent requirements, but one that promised real challenge and substantial rewards.  As a sophomore, I was faced with some harsh reality when one of my fraternity brothers who was graduating in the same program came back from a series of job interviews with the big chemical companies.  He was disillusioned upon learning that the plum jobs in the field were going to those who would sign on to do research on chemical weapons.  This was during the initial increase in our commitment to defending South Vietnam. 


Dupont's ad slogan of "Better Things For Better Living...Through Chemistry" immediately sounded hollow in the face of that news.  I made the choice then to change my program.  It set me back a year in school and lowered my expectations for eventual salary/benefits, but it cleared my conscience concerning working in a field that was increasingly dedicating itself to the destruction and maiming of human beings.  I have never looked back with regret about that decision.  I focused next on foreign languages with an eye to serving in the diplomatic corps, but eventually ended up teaching English instead.  Turned out that I loved teaching.  There is more than one "calling" that will lead to a fulfilling life for young people.  I see no reason why people need to enter the medical field if they cannot, with good conscience, perform certain work that may be required of them.

2 months ago  ::  Feb 10, 2019 - 2:13PM #50
2BBobby
Posts: 3,071

Feb 10, 2019 -- 1:44PM, Max wrote:


Everyone I know that's on Medicare likes it. So do the Drs because they know that they are going to get paid.


I'd say that if there was a Medicare for all Public Option and Private Insurers, within 5 years just about every American would choose the Medicare for all option. 




~~~~~~~~~~~~


Medicare, for me and my wife, has been great. And everyone we know our age feels the same.


The notion that recipients like us are getting something for "free" or cheap is, of course, ridiculous. We paid into the system our entire working lives, and continue to pay into it today. The total of our Medicare A, B & D is approx. $500 per month...comparable to what we paid for private group insurance prior to Medicare.


Ironically, and IMO hypocritically, the complaint many have re the Public Option is that there would be fewer people in the private insurance market to subsidize their health care.

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