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Trump impeachment inquiry is coming
3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:34PM #31
NW
Posts: 1,187

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:27PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:10PM, NW wrote:


Are you suggesting that we shouldn't know the truth about our political candidates if that truth is only known by a foreign country?




Okay, let's say there's a really bad dude. A modern day Al Capone type dude. Like was the case with Al, this dude is good at covering his tracks so there's nothing to pin all these murders and extortions back to him as the guy who ordered them.


An FBI agent breaks into his hideout. No warrant, no grounds for entering the premises - he didn't even attempt to get a warrant. While he's in there, he records this bad dude discussing all the people he's ordered to be murdered, and he's disclosed facts about the murders that nobody could have possibly known if they weren't involved.


Should the recording be used as evidence against the bad dude to put him away and make society safer? Or is the evidence inadmissable because it wasn't gotten the proper way and the FBI agent broke the law to do so.


If you answer mine, i think you'll find the answer to your question. And please just answer, i know there's an obvious pivot to Obama in there for you but i'm hoping you can concentrate and avoid distractions




There's no "pivot" necessary because your example doesn't apply.  It's not illegal for the president to ask for the assistance of another nation in uncovering crimes.  It's also not illegal to premise release of aid on political cooperation.  Your only contention is "but it could help him politically".  My answer to that is bullspit.  If Biden didn't want to be colored as a criminal, then don't do criminal things.

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:46PM #32
felipe27point5
Posts: 2,645

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:34PM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:27PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:10PM, NW wrote:


Are you suggesting that we shouldn't know the truth about our political candidates if that truth is only known by a foreign country?




Okay, let's say there's a really bad dude. A modern day Al Capone type dude. Like was the case with Al, this dude is good at covering his tracks so there's nothing to pin all these murders and extortions back to him as the guy who ordered them.


An FBI agent breaks into his hideout. No warrant, no grounds for entering the premises - he didn't even attempt to get a warrant. While he's in there, he records this bad dude discussing all the people he's ordered to be murdered, and he's disclosed facts about the murders that nobody could have possibly known if they weren't involved.


Should the recording be used as evidence against the bad dude to put him away and make society safer? Or is the evidence inadmissable because it wasn't gotten the proper way and the FBI agent broke the law to do so.


If you answer mine, i think you'll find the answer to your question. And please just answer, i know there's an obvious pivot to Obama in there for you but i'm hoping you can concentrate and avoid distractions




There's no "pivot" necessary because your example doesn't apply.  It's not illegal for the president to ask for the assistance of another nation in uncovering crimes.  It's also not illegal to premise release of aid on political cooperation.  Your only contention is "but it could help him politically".  My answer to that is bullspit.  If Biden didn't want to be colored as a criminal, then don't do criminal things.




*sigh* let me try this again.


Do you think it's okay to commit a crime in order to bring down somebody that's committed a bigger crime?


You are welcome to recall my posts when it becomes that i'm proven wrong as long as we judge it on the merits of what we knew to be true at the time it was posted.
3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:49PM #33
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,194

Sep 26, 2019 -- 1:54PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:11AM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:03AM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 10:55AM, NW wrote:


In this case, just as in the Russia case, it seems to me that Democrats are afraid of the truth.  The Russian "interference" brought to light the truth.  The Ukranian inquiry would have brought to light the truth.  If Biden extorted the Ukranian government as VP in 2016 to COVER UP the truth, we need to know about it.  That's a hell of a lot more significant than Trump extorting the Ukranian government to FIND the truth.




Dan: "It's okay that Trump violated the constitution because Biden did bad stuff too"




I didn't say that either violated The Constitution because quite frankly I don't find this particular situation addressed in The Constitution.  I was just making a statement that it's interesting that in both cases, the Democrats are trying to cover up the truth while the Trump campaign/administration were finding the truth.




If Trump is so interested in finding the truth, why were there so many examples in the mueller report of him obstructing justice? 







If you committed no crime but were ensnared in an investigation with the opposition outwardly lying about the information they have (Adam Schiff) you wouldn't be defensive and circling the wagons?  At the very least the optics were terrible.

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:52PM #34
felipe27point5
Posts: 2,645

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:49PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 1:54PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:11AM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:03AM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 10:55AM, NW wrote:


In this case, just as in the Russia case, it seems to me that Democrats are afraid of the truth.  The Russian "interference" brought to light the truth.  The Ukranian inquiry would have brought to light the truth.  If Biden extorted the Ukranian government as VP in 2016 to COVER UP the truth, we need to know about it.  That's a hell of a lot more significant than Trump extorting the Ukranian government to FIND the truth.




Dan: "It's okay that Trump violated the constitution because Biden did bad stuff too"




I didn't say that either violated The Constitution because quite frankly I don't find this particular situation addressed in The Constitution.  I was just making a statement that it's interesting that in both cases, the Democrats are trying to cover up the truth while the Trump campaign/administration were finding the truth.




If Trump is so interested in finding the truth, why were there so many examples in the mueller report of him obstructing justice? 







If you committed no crime but were ensnared in an investigation with the opposition outwardly lying about the information they have (Adam Schiff) you wouldn't be defensive and circling the wagons?  At the very least the optics were terrible.




If i didn't commit a crime, i wouldn't try to commit a crime to prove i didn't commit a crime. 

You are welcome to recall my posts when it becomes that i'm proven wrong as long as we judge it on the merits of what we knew to be true at the time it was posted.
3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:54PM #35
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,194

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:52PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:49PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 1:54PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:11AM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:03AM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 10:55AM, NW wrote:


In this case, just as in the Russia case, it seems to me that Democrats are afraid of the truth.  The Russian "interference" brought to light the truth.  The Ukranian inquiry would have brought to light the truth.  If Biden extorted the Ukranian government as VP in 2016 to COVER UP the truth, we need to know about it.  That's a hell of a lot more significant than Trump extorting the Ukranian government to FIND the truth.




Dan: "It's okay that Trump violated the constitution because Biden did bad stuff too"




I didn't say that either violated The Constitution because quite frankly I don't find this particular situation addressed in The Constitution.  I was just making a statement that it's interesting that in both cases, the Democrats are trying to cover up the truth while the Trump campaign/administration were finding the truth.




If Trump is so interested in finding the truth, why were there so many examples in the mueller report of him obstructing justice? 







If you committed no crime but were ensnared in an investigation with the opposition outwardly lying about the information they have (Adam Schiff) you wouldn't be defensive and circling the wagons?  At the very least the optics were terrible.




If i didn't commit a crime, i wouldn't try to commit a crime to prove i didn't commit a crime. 




I am as boring and law abiding as you can get but if there was an investigation of me I would lawyer up and they would have a wolverine by the tail.  I am not about to get railroaded even if it's just on principle.

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 2:57PM #36
felipe27point5
Posts: 2,645

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:54PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:52PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:49PM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 1:54PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:11AM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 11:03AM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 10:55AM, NW wrote:


In this case, just as in the Russia case, it seems to me that Democrats are afraid of the truth.  The Russian "interference" brought to light the truth.  The Ukranian inquiry would have brought to light the truth.  If Biden extorted the Ukranian government as VP in 2016 to COVER UP the truth, we need to know about it.  That's a hell of a lot more significant than Trump extorting the Ukranian government to FIND the truth.




Dan: "It's okay that Trump violated the constitution because Biden did bad stuff too"




I didn't say that either violated The Constitution because quite frankly I don't find this particular situation addressed in The Constitution.  I was just making a statement that it's interesting that in both cases, the Democrats are trying to cover up the truth while the Trump campaign/administration were finding the truth.




If Trump is so interested in finding the truth, why were there so many examples in the mueller report of him obstructing justice? 







If you committed no crime but were ensnared in an investigation with the opposition outwardly lying about the information they have (Adam Schiff) you wouldn't be defensive and circling the wagons?  At the very least the optics were terrible.




If i didn't commit a crime, i wouldn't try to commit a crime to prove i didn't commit a crime. 




I am as boring and law abiding as you can get but if there was an investigation of me I would lawyer up and they would have a wolverine by the tail.  I am not about to get railroaded even if it's just on principle.




Seeing as how neither of those are crimes, that's fine. If you ordered your lawyers to obstruct justice, that would be a crime

You are welcome to recall my posts when it becomes that i'm proven wrong as long as we judge it on the merits of what we knew to be true at the time it was posted.
3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 3:01PM #37
NW
Posts: 1,187

Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:46PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:34PM, NW wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:27PM, felipe27point5 wrote:


Sep 26, 2019 -- 2:10PM, NW wrote:


Are you suggesting that we shouldn't know the truth about our political candidates if that truth is only known by a foreign country?




Okay, let's say there's a really bad dude. A modern day Al Capone type dude. Like was the case with Al, this dude is good at covering his tracks so there's nothing to pin all these murders and extortions back to him as the guy who ordered them.


An FBI agent breaks into his hideout. No warrant, no grounds for entering the premises - he didn't even attempt to get a warrant. While he's in there, he records this bad dude discussing all the people he's ordered to be murdered, and he's disclosed facts about the murders that nobody could have possibly known if they weren't involved.


Should the recording be used as evidence against the bad dude to put him away and make society safer? Or is the evidence inadmissable because it wasn't gotten the proper way and the FBI agent broke the law to do so.


If you answer mine, i think you'll find the answer to your question. And please just answer, i know there's an obvious pivot to Obama in there for you but i'm hoping you can concentrate and avoid distractions




There's no "pivot" necessary because your example doesn't apply.  It's not illegal for the president to ask for the assistance of another nation in uncovering crimes.  It's also not illegal to premise release of aid on political cooperation.  Your only contention is "but it could help him politically".  My answer to that is bullspit.  If Biden didn't want to be colored as a criminal, then don't do criminal things.




*sigh* let me try this again.


Do you think it's okay to commit a crime in order to bring down somebody that's committed a bigger crime?





Well, there are volumes of legal precedent that allow law enforcement to do just that.  I also don't think that Trump committed a crime by asking the Ukranian president to open up an investigation.  You said yourself that there is valid reason for an investigation.  The fact that an investigation could turn up evidence that would support his campaign is immaterial to me.

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 3:15PM #38
yankoldfan
Posts: 8,606

The problem is Dan/L_L just can't read the handwriting on the wall, if donald didn't commit a crime why is he doing everything he can to cover one up, why does he always seem to have people in place to cover up his crimes, AG Barr a man that had some creditability problems already finds his way to becoming the AG ?? They take the transcripts of these phone calls and remove them from one server to a server that is supposed to be confidential with presidential priveledges, why ?? Why is it OK to talk to a foreign country to get help to defeat your opponent ??? It's not that hard to understand, again if donald isn't doing something wrong why does he keep trying to stop every investigation ?? Innocent people just don't do this, donald continues to lie about the Congressional investigations, he continues to blame someone else for his problems.. It's not that hard to see ??

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 3:37PM #39
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 17,194

Sep 26, 2019 -- 3:15PM, yankoldfan wrote:


The problem is Dan/L_L just can't read the handwriting on the wall, if donald didn't commit a crime why is he doing everything he can to cover one up, why does he always seem to have people in place to cover up his crimes, AG Barr a man that had some creditability problems already finds his way to becoming the AG ?? They take the transcripts of these phone calls and remove them from one server to a server that is supposed to be confidential with presidential priveledges, why ?? Why is it OK to talk to a foreign country to get help to defeat your opponent ??? It's not that hard to understand, again if donald isn't doing something wrong why does he keep trying to stop every investigation ?? Innocent people just don't do this, donald continues to lie about the Congressional investigations, he continues to blame someone else for his problems.. It's not that hard to see ??




Why would Barr try to limit the eyes that view a foreign conversation when we have seen how many of them leaked to the public already?  We are in a brave new world where politicians need to assume there is at least a 20% chance their conversation will be aired to the public.

3 months ago  ::  Sep 26, 2019 - 4:08PM #40
felipe27point5
Posts: 2,645

Sep 26, 2019 -- 3:01PM, NW wrote:


Well, there are volumes of legal precedent that allow law enforcement to do just that.  I also don't think that Trump committed a crime by asking the Ukranian president to open up an investigation.  You said yourself that there is valid reason for an investigation.  The fact that an investigation could turn up evidence that would support his campaign is immaterial to me.




I believe i said "may" - i honestly don't care either way but from what i've heard there actually isn't any *there* there. 


However, what is material to YOU isn't material anywhere else. The fact remains the President tried to coerce a foreign country into investigating his political rival.


Whether or not YOU think that matters is immaterial to the FACT they are inextricably linked together. You can't have one without the other. So by asking for an investigation into his political rival, he committed a crime. 


You keep saying "well i want to know" which seems to be saying you think the end justifies the means. That's why I asked you whether you think it's okay to commit a crime if it brings down a bigger criminal. Whether you acknowledge that Trump violated election law does not change the fact that he violated it. 


And stop saying "oh he just asked" when in actuality he was witholding $400 million of military aid while he was "asking." That's extortion. Asking the Ukraine to look into Crowdstrike has NOTHING to do with Biden - that's a personal matter to Trump.


He broke the law!

You are welcome to recall my posts when it becomes that i'm proven wrong as long as we judge it on the merits of what we knew to be true at the time it was posted.
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