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So glad Steinbrenner is "commited to winning"
2 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2019 - 8:24PM #31
SSBob643
Posts: 1,622

Oct 16, 2019 -- 8:15PM, maplebats wrote:


One last thing - there was a response to my post that displayed a lack of comprehension. Yes, I said the Game 2 loss was on Boone's use of the bullpen...




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Wow...come up for air Tolstoy.


Actually, I believe you said Nevin's decision to send DJL cost Yanks the game. 


BTW...what did you think while you were listening to Sterling's call of Didi's HR yesterday?




2 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2019 - 9:15PM #32
Balboni
Posts: 260

Oct 16, 2019 -- 8:15PM, maplebats wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 4:04PM, Balboni wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 3:14PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 2:54PM, maplebats wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 12:37AM, Jon wrote:


Verlander + Cole or Gray + Happ.


Steinbrenner: "We can't spend that much!"


Cashman: "Okay, well, Happ and Gray have better fWARs than those two anyway."




The currency to acquire Verlander and Cole was not dollars but prospects. This franchise was not then, and is not now, in a good position to overpay in prospects to acquire any veteran player. The Yankee payroll is the second-highest in baseball at $220M. $220M in payroll is one heck of an enormous commitment. Only the Red Sox are higher at $230M. The Astros and Nationals are at $168M. The Rays took the Astros to the edge of elimination and the Rays payroll is $64M. Obviously, there isn't a proportional correlation between amount of payroll and ability to field a championship. It isn't how much you spend, it's how well you spend it.


Since the earliest 2000's, I've said the same thing. Cashman knows how to build a team to win in the regular season. He is clueless when it comes to building teams that can win in the post season. Cashman loves the homerun. Think back to early in this season when we encountered the first wave of injuries. All of a sudden we saw LeMahieu, Urshela, Frazier, Judge and Gleyber lashing the ball to all parts of the field. Judge and Gleyber hit a combined 10 HRs in the month of April, but the patience and discipline at the plate was paying dividends. They were working deep into counts. They were not trying to do too much, hitting the ball where it was thrown, manufacturing runs by getting runners on base and having great at-bats with men in scoring position.


For some inexplicable reason, this Yankees offense in this ALCS has gotten completely away from the things that they did to win 103 games. I don't think we can truly know anymore whether this is because of a directive from Brian Cashman or from Aaron Boone, but someone has made some terrible decisions that have not given the team its maximum chances to win. None of the blame falls on the Yankees pitching. For the most part (ie - except Ottavino), the Yankees pitching has done its job. The Yankees offense has been dreadful, swinging at the first pitch, swinging at pitches well out of the zone. Every bad habit that these Yankees hitters shook off this year has suddenly come back in full force in this ALCS. Boone and some of his coaches have had an absolutely horrendous approach to this ALCS. Is Boone under orders from Cashman? Who knows, but the Yankees have blown many huge opportunities in this ALCS, and none of it is the fault of the pitching staff or owner Hal Steinbrenner.





Or...



This team has hit a lot of home runs all year long but also did a lot of other things well.  They've stopped doing those other things well when going up against two of the best pitchers in the sport.



I know you've been beating the "not built for the playoffs" drum for years, but its always been ridiculous.  The Astros hit a lot of home runs too.  Guess what won them games 2 and 3?  A pair of solo shots in each game.  




Yeah it's pretty funny and not sure why this poster doesn't mention that Houston's HR's have made the difference in the last 2 games. Houston is much better at not strinking out but both teams score tons of runs via the HR. They were 3rd in the majors in HR's. Houston would not be where they are without being a good HR hitting team


I think this is the same guy that said the game 2 loss was all on Boone with his pitching moves, now he is saying that you can't blame the Yankee pitching, which is it ?


Just heard Boone with Francesa and Mike asked him about the approach against Verlander and Cole and he said the approach was to be aggressive against both because both guys get ahead in the count and then are next to impossible to hit. I think it was the right approach against Cole. He didn't have his best stuff early and they jumped on him. The problem was leaving 9 guys on base in the first few innings and not coming up with the big hit. They did get 5 walks off of Cole. 


I love this line " For some inexplicable reason, this Yankees offense in this ALCS has gotten completely away from the things that they did to win 103 games" I don't know maybe facing the 2 best pitchers in the AL have something to do with it ? No one seemed to be complaining about the Yanks team approach after game 1.







I don't see much logic put forth in either reply. "Well, they won game 1" is not a logical counter-argument to what I posted. I will expand my comments further because perhaps I wasn't clear. Cashman has a long history of building terrific regular season teams while also being blind when it comes to building a team that can win in the post season. Cashman for years ignored the bullpen, and you cannot win in the post season without a a strong bullpen. Cashman for years ignored AVG hitters while falling in love with the HR. You cannot win in the post season without hitters who encompass great bat control. Now, two people replied to that with "But the Astros scored their runs on HRs" as a way to refute my comment. Contact hitters also hit HRs, and I neither said nor implied otherwise. Josh Reddick hit one of those HRs for the Astros. He hit to a .275 AVG with 14 HRs - my point exactly. The other Astros HRs were hit by Correa who hit to a .280 AVG and .358 OBP, Springer who is having an MVP-type season hitting to a .292 AVG and .383 OBP, and Altuve who hit to a .298 AVG and .353 OBP. These are hitters not only with exceptional bat control but also a strong command of the strike zone. You might say these are contact hitters who also hit for power.


There are power hitters who also hit for AVG, there are power hitters who cannot hit for AVG, and there are power hitters who cannot hit for neither AVG nor OBP. Cashman, in the 2000's, fell in love with power hitters who could not hit for AVG nor OBP. Residues of that failed Cashman's philosophy existed right up until the last off-season when he made a point to rectify the obvious long-standing flaw in the Yankees offense by going after contact hitters that have in their careers displayed good bat control and good command of the strike zone. You saw the benefits in April, May, and June when the Yankees were manufacturing runs by making contact and putting the ball in play rather than looking to hit every pitch 450 feet. Great. That is the kind of offense that produces runs in the post season.


The post season. It is no surprise to anyone that in the post season you will face the most elite starting pitchers. It is not a secret. Therefore, you can design your offense to win games against the ordinary teams of the regular season while also being designed to win in the post season. This 2019 Yankees offense was designed to do just that. I've gone a long way to explain that Cashman built this offense to produce in the post season -- and someone has changed the approach now that this offense is in the post season. Who? Boone? Doubtful. Cashman? Perhaps. Cashman has long professed that you can stack the lineup with hairy monsters who might run into one. This Yankee lineup is best when it plays to its strengths - control of the strike zone. I understand that there is a school of thought that says you need to be aggressive against the most elite pitchers because then they control the at bat when they get ahead. Fine. There is also a school of thought that says being aggressive not only helps the elite pitcher gets ahead but also helps the economy of his pitch count, and you play the long game and grind out at bats, take pitches, try to foul pitches off, until the later innings when perhaps the pitcher starts to fatigue a bit and after you have now seen two at-bats worth of all the pitches in his repertoire. Who is responsible for the change in approach in this ALCS?


Who is responsible for batting Gardner third? It's the post season. Much different than the regular season. In the post season, everything is magnified including pressure. You have to make an ally of pressure. You must construct your lineup with the intent to maximize pressure on the pitcher. You must bunch up your best hitters at the top of the lineup and split up your power hitters in the middle. In Game 2, the Yankees did just that. LeMahieu, Judge, and Torres to start, followed by Encarnacion and Sanchez split up by Gardner. Good. The offense did what they could, they were grinding out at-bats. The loss fell on tactical errors made by Boone especially, and Nevin in part. But in Game 3, the first mistake was the terrible lineup order. The second mistake was in not immediately adjusting to the moment. It was plainly obvious from the first inning that Cole was not at his best. If there was an order given to the Yankee lineup prior to the game to be very aggressive, that order needed to be rescinded the moment it became clear that Cole was not sharp. I talk about this all year, every year - players and teams that exhibit an ability to correctly identify issues and successfully make rapid adjustments are teams that will do well in the big moments of the season. The Yankees lineup did not make any adjustments in Game 3.


And please, don't reply with "It's Cole and Verlander" like you already have. Take any post season in the past or in the future. There will inevitably be elite pitchers in that post season. We already know this. That doesn't mean there is no way to beat such pitchers. You need everyone to be on the same page and to show the same level of discipline, because there is no room for error. The Yankees have a team that can beat Cole and Verlander but two things went wrong in games where there is no room for error - Boone was outmanaged and outmaneuvered in Game 2, and the Yankees offense betrayed the philosophy and discipline in Game 3 that has served them so well all season.


And please, don't reply with "hindsight is 20/20", because you don't know how I was screaming at my TV the moment these things were happening. Just because you read my comments after the game doesn't mean my opinions weren't formulated in the moment. Do you just sit back and never have an opinion on something that happens the moment it happens in a baseball game? Or do you just blindly wave the pom-poms regardless of what your eyes see? I'm long passed those days. It doesn't mean I don't want the Yankees to win. I'm much more of a realist who knows that my pom-pom waving has no bearing on the outcome of the game. No matter how much you profess to "believe" the Yankees can win and no matter how often you express "positive thoughts", none of that has any effect on the game. The "Believing in my team means I'm a bigger fan than you" is just silly adolescent nonsense. I am more interested in the stewardship of the team I love than most people. I love baseball and Yankees baseball in particular. As a lifelong and passionate fan, I believe this team belongs more to me than it does to Boone, Cashman, and Steinbrenner. Fanatical thoughts, indeed, but I make keen observations on the way this franchise is handled. For the first season in many, many seasons, I believe that Cashman has assembled a team that can win in the post season. I do not believe that Boone has managed this team well in this post season.


One last thing - there was a response to my post that displayed a lack of comprehension. Yes, I said the Game 2 loss was on Boone's use of the bullpen, and yes I said Yankees pitching is not to blame. The two comments are not incompatible if you read what I wrote. The Yankees relievers did an excellent job. The Yankees are built to win in the post season versus elite starting pitching on the strength of their deep and formidable bullpen. In other words, the bullpen is designed to outlast the innings pitched by the opposing elite pitcher and their bullpen. In other words, Boone needs to be frugal and prudent with the use of his relievers in a close or tied game to outlast the opponent. Boone hurried his way through his relievers and ended up having to go to Loaisiga and Happ in the 10th inning - not the 12th or the 14th but the 10th. Boone made the choice to pull Paxton in the 3rd inning. OK, but that meant he needed to make exquisite use of his bullpen. The Yankees had a lead in the 4th inning with Chad Green. Green got one out in the 5th when the top of the Astros order was due up. Green was throwing darts. Why pull him? Let Green, who looked untouchable, go up against the best part of the Astros lineup. Why pull him? Why then insert Ottavino who has struggled for last six weeks? The game was tied in the 5th and remained tied until the 11th. Boone needed to play the long game, especially once Verlander was removed in the 7th inning. Boone was playing the game as though he was hoping to get a lead by the 9th inning or bust. Why? Boone already had the lead in the 4th. Let Green get you through the 5th. Bring in Kahnle for the 6th and 7th. Bring in Britton for the 8th and Chapman for the 9th. But Boone pulls Green who was on fire and brings in ice cold Ottavino. Now the game is tied. Why not let your quality relievers stay in the game until they stop throwing quality pitches just in case the game turns into a long and drawn out classic extra inning game? Boone's decisions did not gave his team the best chance to win the game. He managed like he was scared to lose instead of managing with a coolness and calm confidence to win.




LOL ...you actually think I am going to read all of that. If you can put together a response that makes sense in a paragraph or 2 maybe I'll respond. Just skimming it it looks like more Monday morning quarterbacking and blaming Boone and Cashman for everything.

2 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2019 - 10:59PM #33
yank0428
Posts: 17,506

Oct 16, 2019 -- 5:06PM, njyf wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 3:38PM, yank0428 wrote:


Oct 16, 2019 -- 2:12PM, Paterson wrote:


      We just lost two games in a row...one of which we scored 2 runs and the second where we scored 1. I don't care if we bring back Seaver, Gibson and Carlton...we are not going far if we average 1.5 runs per game.


     Score 7 runs and the pitching problems disappear.




Against who Pat? Verlander and Cole. If the Yanks had them this wouldn't have happened. Only kidding. 


 I don't blame Cashman for not getting them.Pirates took less for Cole. Hal wouldn't add Verlanders contract. 


 The issues with Verlander was Hals budget. The issue with Corbin was Hals budget. We could go back to Scherzer and probably say the same thing. With Cole going free agent less money offered better not be the issue. This team needs an ace. CC was an Ace the last time they won. The Nats have 3. The Astros have 2. The Yanks despite Tanaka being great in the postseason have none.



Ellsbury's terrible contract is still having repercussions right now. Without his $153M contract hanging over the Yankees, I think Hal would have been more willing to take on Verlander's contract.


Signing Ellsbury was an epic fail.




Your right because it makes Hal gun shy on long term deals. I get it. I'd be ticked about Ellsburys contract if I was paying. I'm not and I'm ticked. Stanton's could be going the same way but if you don't have an Ace and other teams do, some more then one and you haven't won a Championship since 2009  . You have to gamble if you really mean the goal is to win a Championship every year. Pick out the right guy and Cole is then go all in.Then keep your fingers crossed they stay healthy.


 CC was the right guy, Burnett wasn't.


 Mussina was, Pavano wasn't. 


  Shame one of these international signings hasn't really produced one. Severinio has the stuff to be one but doubt he ever will. Maybe Garcia can make it. It's been a long time since Andy came up, they are due.

2 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2019 - 11:20PM #34
Cocopugg
Posts: 6,901

Oct 16, 2019 -- 9:15AM, njyf wrote:


If they don't win it this year, what's the big deal? You get a new chance every year. 



The problem is, the players are getting older, as they wait for the Astros to get older too, so they start losing, and by the time they finally do, the Yankees will be so old they'll have to rebuild the team all over again, and this generation of Yankees won't have a championship. I don't expect the Red Sox to stink next yr the way they did this year, and I don't expect the Yankees to win 100+ games next yr the way they did this year (they will be morally depressed, should the inevitable happen). Let's face it, if the Yankees don't win this year, there will be more bad to come next yr from the fallout, than there will be good.

2 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2019 - 11:33PM #35
bumper
Posts: 6,750

uh maple let's look under the hood of green being "on fire". yes he got 6 outs but they all weren't pretty. in fact he allowed 3 shots, 2 of which were over 100 mph with an average xBA of about .500. chirinos shot was in fact harder hit than correa's walk off. held my breath for a moment worrying whether they were gonna find the gap or the seats. and yes he struck out the #9 hitter which is when boone decided he didn't want him facing the top of the order. in addition springer was 0-4 w 3 Ks against ottovino and 2-7 w a double and 3 RBI against green. so boone made the move. for sure ottovino's sucked lately but overall he's been an important part of that bullpen and we need him to be right. at the time, certainly wasn't clamoring for green to be removed but there's a bit more than involved in the manager's decision to remove a pitcher who was "on fire" (not really).

2 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2019 - 7:13AM #36
yankoldfan
Posts: 8,649

It does seem Hal/Hank/Ca$hman love the Bronx Bombers, what they forget is homeruns come easy during the season against the middle of the road pitchers.. When the playoff season rolls around those middle of the road pitchers are watching from the sidelines... As I watch this Astros team I see a team that does the right things, they don't strikeout a lot, they make contact and move runners while doing so... 


The moves this team needs to make are the ones that seem unpopular to so many ?? I would move Sanchez for a pitcher or a good contact hitter if there is one available, I would do everything in my power to put wheels under Stanton and maybe Otovino (sp) and I would go all in to get Cole... Mr. O hasn't been sharp enough to strike out the Babe even in his grave... There are some tough decisions to be made but if they are not made it'll be the same next season... Now I will say one thing, was this season a failure, by no means, I have enjoyed this season as much as any I've watched, but if winning it all is the only thing fans and Management are willing to take, some bold moves have to be made..

2 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2019 - 1:07PM #37
cleanuphtr12
Posts: 1,241


Oct 16, 2019 -- 8:15PM, maplebats wrote:


snip





I honestly tried to read the entire post, but in the second paragraph when you started talking about Cashman "falling in love with power hitters who couldn't hit for power or average in the 2000's" and I just couldn't go through 7 more paragraphs if they were going to be that inaccurate.



The players that Cashman imported in the 2000's were NOT low average, low on base power hitters.  That's ridiculous revisionist history, and frankly it doesn't require ANY research to come up with a LONG list of high OB% players who could hit that he brought in:  



And you want to call other posters illogical?  At least I'm not completely rewriting history to make some narrative I created in my head fit.



- Jason Giambi was a .300+ hitter with insane on base skills when he came here.  


- AROD


- Hideki Matsui


- Gary Sheffield


- Johnny Damon 


- Bobby Abreu


- Nick Swisher was a relatively low average hitter, but he had consistently high OB%


- Teixeira was a consistent .280-.300 hitter before arriving here


- Granderson was another relatively low average hitter who had high OB%


- Ellsbury - doesn't fit your description even if he was a terrible signing.


- Beltran



Even some of the lesser known guys that you have to look up to remember they were Yankees don't fit the mold that you claim existed 


-Rondell White - career .288 hitter, hit .240 here.


- Robin Venture - high OB% hitter


- Kenny Lofton - contact hitter


- Eric Chavez, Raul Ibanez, the list goes on and on.



The Yankees didn't fail over the past two decades because they were bringing in poor hitters.  They had a string of consistent .280+ hitters with VERY good on base skills who JUST DIDN'T COME THROUGH IN THE PLAYOFFS.  The implication that they were importing a bunch of Chris Carter types consistently over that time period is just absurd.



And you want to say other posters are "illogical"?  At least we're not rewriting history to make a narrative fit.

_______________________________________________

Please note:  I'm arguing against your post, not against you as a person.  I respect your right to have a different opinion even if I completely disagree with every word you wrote.
2 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2019 - 2:23PM #38
Balboni
Posts: 260

's

Oct 17, 2019 -- 1:07PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:



Oct 16, 2019 -- 8:15PM, maplebats wrote:


snip





I honestly tried to read the entire post, but in the second paragraph when you started talking about Cashman "falling in love with power hitters who couldn't hit for power or average in the 2000's" and I just couldn't go through 7 more paragraphs if they were going to be that inaccurate.



The players that Cashman imported in the 2000's were NOT low average, low on base power hitters.  That's ridiculous revisionist history, and frankly it doesn't require ANY research to come up with a LONG list of high OB% players who could hit that he brought in:  



And you want to call other posters illogical?  At least I'm not completely rewriting history to make some narrative I created in my head fit.



- Jason Giambi was a .300+ hitter with insane on base skills when he came here.  


- AROD


- Hideki Matsui


- Gary Sheffield


- Johnny Damon 


- Bobby Abreu


- Nick Swisher was a relatively low average hitter, but he had consistently high OB%


- Teixeira was a consistent .280-.300 hitter before arriving here


- Granderson was another relatively low average hitter who had high OB%


- Ellsbury - doesn't fit your description even if he was a terrible signing.


- Beltran



Even some of the lesser known guys that you have to look up to remember they were Yankees don't fit the mold that you claim existed 


-Rondell White - career .288 hitter, hit .240 here.


- Robin Venture - high OB% hitter


- Kenny Lofton - contact hitter


- Eric Chavez, Raul Ibanez, the list goes on and on.



The Yankees didn't fail over the past two decades because they were bringing in poor hitters.  They had a string of consistent .280+ hitters with VERY good on base skills who JUST DIDN'T COME THROUGH IN THE PLAYOFFS.  The implication that they were importing a bunch of Chris Carter types consistently over that time period is just absurd.



And you want to say other posters are "illogical"?  At least we're not rewriting history to make a narrative fit.




Thanks for the readers digest version. Sitting in the Doctor's office now I just decided to read the whole thing. You made the right choice by quiting after the second paragraph it gets much worse after that. Here are my 2  favorite lines in his War and Peace post below 


"And please, don't reply with "hindsight is 20/20", because you don't know how I was screaming at my TV the moment these things were happening."


"I believe this team belongs more to me than it does to Boone, Cashman, and Steinbrenner. Fanatical thoughts, indeed, but I make keen observations on the way this franchise is handled"


The rest is just rambling and still not admitting that the the main reason they lost game 2 was that the offense only got 1 hit in 4 plus innings vs the Houston pen after getting Verlander out of the game.


Not in love with all of Boone's moves either like batting Garner 3rd just to break up the lefties, and shaking up the lineup for game 3 makes sense but Boone can't hit for them.


Bottom line is Houston is a better team with Verlander and Cole on the mound and if they continue to struggle against the Houston pen and lose this series, I don't know, it might just be because Houston is the better team as opposed to Boone's decisions.


That's my not so keen observation


2 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2019 - 3:13PM #39
mscamaguey
Posts: 819

I think Cole wanted one more year and the Yanks Balked. They could have had Verlander, but they passed and we have ended up with third rate pitchers, Gray was no good. Paxton is Mediocre, Happ is hideous that for starters. CC is just old and he will be gone as soon as the WS is over. I don't know what pitchers will be FA but I believe The H brothers and Cashman are already looking inside dumpster hoping to find a treasure. The only reason the Yanks have gotten this far has been our Potent lineup and the lockdown pen. 

2 months ago  ::  Oct 17, 2019 - 4:18PM #40
Cocopugg
Posts: 6,901

Oct 17, 2019 -- 3:13PM, mscamaguey wrote:


I think Cole wanted one more year and the Yanks Balked. They could have had Verlander, but they passed and we have ended up with third rate pitchers, Gray was no good. Paxton is Mediocre, Happ is hideous that for starters. CC is just old and he will be gone as soon as the WS is over. I don't know what pitchers will be FA but I believe The H brothers and Cashman are already looking inside dumpster hoping to find a treasure. The only reason the Yanks have gotten this far has been our Potent lineup and the lockdown pen. 




Yes.

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