Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 10 of 11  •  Prev 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next
A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 4:50PM #91
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 12, 2013 -- 3:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Punting the questions in my post does nothing to maintain or further your position.


Cheating is a crime. So is shoplifting. So is murder.


To assist further, you are attempting to cast a huge, wide net across all players and eras to not convict them, but to exonerate the most vile abusers to this sport which includes Bonds, Alex, Sosa, Clemens, etc. Their intent was to inflate their numbers well beyond their God given level of talent.


It is those players who should be erased from the history of the sport. Not enshrined with those who came before them.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:49PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:43PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


You are extremely focused on the word cheating.


Are you cheating if Nike makes you a special shoe that provides better ankle support and cushioning that is unavailable to other players? Or if Under Armor makes you a special batting glove that provices a better grip that is also not available to others? Is it cheating if you work out 7 days a week if the standard is 3 days a week?


To protect those that have seriously sinned in the game, you want to cast a wide net to those who not only used to recover for a singular reason and roll it up to include those who used vaseline on a ball. This is extremely disingenious.


Therefore and based on your logic, a person who shoplifts should meet with the same end as one who commits murder or what you are bloviating, they both should meet a slap on the wrist, because both are crimes.


Luckily, this thinking only applies to the failing state of California.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:11PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.










Unless I'm mistaken...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference. 








as I reiterate...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating..but nevertheless it's a crime....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference.



I never said stealing, murder are not criminal acts..don't put words in my mouth.  Unless you are not aware, HGH falls under the category of PEDs and utilizing it is cheating no matter how you attempt to side step it.


Unlike Sosa, Clemens and Bonds,  Pettitte has the persona of being an all around nice guy as I do think he's rather special.  If you want to condemn Sosa, Clemens and Bonds, they you better add Pettitte to the list.  I don't believe MLB see HGH falling on a different category as punishment is applied equally regardless if it's HGH or Steroids.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 8:14PM #92
78Bombers
Posts: 2,826

Jan 12, 2013 -- 4:50PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 3:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Punting the questions in my post does nothing to maintain or further your position.


Cheating is a crime. So is shoplifting. So is murder.


To assist further, you are attempting to cast a huge, wide net across all players and eras to not convict them, but to exonerate the most vile abusers to this sport which includes Bonds, Alex, Sosa, Clemens, etc. Their intent was to inflate their numbers well beyond their God given level of talent.


It is those players who should be erased from the history of the sport. Not enshrined with those who came before them.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:49PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:43PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


You are extremely focused on the word cheating.


Are you cheating if Nike makes you a special shoe that provides better ankle support and cushioning that is unavailable to other players? Or if Under Armor makes you a special batting glove that provices a better grip that is also not available to others? Is it cheating if you work out 7 days a week if the standard is 3 days a week?


To protect those that have seriously sinned in the game, you want to cast a wide net to those who not only used to recover for a singular reason and roll it up to include those who used vaseline on a ball. This is extremely disingenious.


Therefore and based on your logic, a person who shoplifts should meet with the same end as one who commits murder or what you are bloviating, they both should meet a slap on the wrist, because both are crimes.


Luckily, this thinking only applies to the failing state of California.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:11PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.










Unless I'm mistaken...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference. 








as I reiterate...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating..but nevertheless it's a crime....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference.



I never said stealing, murder are not criminal acts..don't put words in my mouth.  Unless you are not aware, HGH falls under the category of PEDs and utilizing it is cheating no matter how you attempt to side step it.


Unlike Sosa, Clemens and Bonds,  Pettitte has the persona of being an all around nice guy as I do think he's rather special.  If you want to condemn Sosa, Clemens and Bonds, they you better add Pettitte to the list.  I don't believe MLB see HGH falling on a different category as punishment is applied equally regardless if it's HGH or Steroids.




It's obvious that he knows nothing about HGH or anabolic steroids for that matter.  I do and I've said enough...I have no horse in this race.  His replies remind me of a politician.  Everything but the facts are being put into the argument.  I discussed HGH at the gym today with a Professional Bodybuilder...he backs my statement that using HGH in 2002 implies a sophisticated ped user.  I don't care who used what but don't try to paint a HGH cheater as an angel.  Look at his avaitar...


Water pistols...bandaids...modern medicine = non-factual bs talk. 


Alex said he used for 2 years = he used it since high school.  Andy used it two days - he used it like aspirin and that's fine.


Now for the caps...Understand this....


NOBODY USES HGH FOR TWO DAYS - IT'S NOT LIKE ASPIRIN - YOU CYCLE ON IT AND YOU CYCLE OFF IT- IT PRODUCES SYNTHETIC TESTOSTERONE IN THE BODY AND ELEVATES THOSE LEVELS - REMEMBER WHEN MANNY WAS BUSTED IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE ESTROGEN THEY DETECTED - ATHLETES USE ESTROGEN WHEN THEY CYCLE OFF.   HGH IS A CYCLE JUST LIKE STEROIDS...THE CYCLE LASTS 2-3 MONTHS.   USED HGH TWICE = A HGH CYCLE THAT LASTS AT LEAST TWO MONTHS.


HE USED IT FOR TWO DAYS - YOU BELIEVE THAT AND YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. 


HAHAHHAHAA -


....how can I possibly make these statements?  I owned a gym in the 80's - 90's.  I've worked out since I was 17.  I have friends that own gyms...I have friends that are pro bodybuilders...in the early 90's I worked out at a gym where well lets just say we saw a lot of things....I love to work out with weights, I've never taken anything to enhance performance...I talk to people that are experts on the subject all the time...I talk to competitiive bodybuilders...I encourage people to work out hard...

10 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 9:19AM #93
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:22PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:16PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:08PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:02PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:58PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:42PM, newinn wrote:













The only thing I feel bad about is history will show Bonds as the all time HR leader, McGuwire will have erased Maris' accomplishment. Wont happen in our generation but records of the true greats of the game will be marginalized and that is a terrible loss for a sport that relies on historic accomplishments more then any other




+1

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
10 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 9:20AM #94
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Jan 12, 2013 -- 4:03AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


If ones kills a man does it make any difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle?




Nobody hit 40 home runs with a switchblade (let alone 50, 60 or 70).


Plenty did with the rifle.








Exactly!

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
10 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 9:57AM #95
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:36PM, 78Bombers wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:54PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:50PM, AJPP wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.



Good post, newinn





T, tends to post as if his opinions are facts and far more valuable and important then everyone else. He has about as much wiggle room as Hal




Gotta love the modern medicine line...


leaving for the gym now, I always train all-natural but there are a couple guys there on Sat that I think must use the modern medicine


It looks like MLB has taken a hard line on HGH with blood testing.  When Andy used HGH there was no test that could detect it.  McNamee's testimony opened up the discussion.   Using HGH in 2002 indicated to me that Andy had a higher level of understanding of peds than just deca or dianabol that many athletes used.  Bonds used the clear/Andy HGH.  Please respond if you get what I'm saying.   If you don't, this conversation will be around as long as the game is played.  It's unfortunate that this is the case but so is ignorance on this matter. 


Synthetic HGH & anabolic steroids give the athlete an unfair advantage over an all-natural athlete.  To even have to discuss it is silly.   Hardcore gyms are full of users & all-natural bodybuilders who can discuss this issue intelligently.  Unfortunately, I don't see much understanding of peds on this board or in this thread in particular. 


I hope that at least some of you take the time to train hard and natural at the gym...it really improves your health.  Much of the rest of life's inputs are pure bs.  Train hard, eat well and just maybe you'll stay young forever.


 





I do understand 78. I'll go so far as saying that it's hard to get in someone's hear to measure intent but I certainly can measure the action. Andy (who is my all time favorite Yankee starter) took a banned or illegal substance. I'll leave it open to debate how many times he took it but he took it admittedly at least twice. By my standards he is guilty of at least that. If you ban Arod or Bonds, imo Andy should be banned also. I think over all none of them should be banned because there are too many question marks about who took them and who didn't.


The guys that really get screwed are guys like McGriff (assuming he was clean) who might have HOF numbers in most era's.


By the way, I do go to the gym 3/4 times a week but only from Jan. to May. Summers are just too busy

10 years ago  ::  Jan 13, 2013 - 3:47PM #96
Paterson
Posts: 8,221

   I figured I would pipe in as I go the gym myself just about every day.... I look in the window, check out the pretty girls and then I run as fast as I can before somebody comes out to punch me in the nose! That is my exercise plan. 


   Folks, as a group we love baseball and love the Yankees...but we have precious little knowledge about the use of drugs in athletics. I know something worked wonders for Bonds and Sosa...but have no idea what or why things did not go so well for dozens of other guys. Did they have better stuff? Did they have a special body type? Did they work out harder ? Maybe they combined a couple of different products to make magic. Until we know a lot more, maybe waiting for the truth is not such a bad thing.


   Drugs are still being used. I just read how many athletes at all levels now have ADHD...and a prescription for Adderall or Ritalin. Is a drug that gives someone an advantage on the field acceptable just because a doctor prescribed it? 


   I am happy MLB is finally addressing the issue...but there is a long way to go. I still think the Hall should be doing its job to preserve the history of the game...even the ugly history...by investigating what took place and then we can pick up this argument. 


10 years ago  ::  Jan 14, 2013 - 10:50PM #97
78Bombers
Posts: 2,826

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:47PM, Paterson wrote:


   I figured I would pipe in as I go the gym myself just about every day.... I look in the window, check out the pretty girls and then I run as fast as I can before somebody comes out to punch me in the nose! That is my exercise plan. 






So that was you...there are many different types of fitness programs.  Its good that you are able to work the gym into your exercise plan.


   

10 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 4:55AM #98
hall4netls
Posts: 951

Im gonna let you all in on a little secret. IS NOT NORMAL TO HIT 50 HRS A YEAR!!!!! Yepper. So your guys from the 90s and ks are no bigger than our guys in the 30s-80s, you just had better drugs.


GO YANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 5:01AM #99
hall4netls
Posts: 951

Jan 13, 2013 -- 3:47PM, Paterson wrote:


   I figured I would pipe in as I go the gym myself just about every day.... I look in the window, check out the pretty girls and then I run as fast as I can before somebody comes out to punch me in the nose! That is my exercise plan. 


   Folks, as a group we love baseball and love the Yankees...but we have precious little knowledge about the use of drugs in athletics. I know something worked wonders for Bonds and Sosa...but have no idea what or why things did not go so well for dozens of other guys. Did they have better stuff? Did they have a special body type? Did they work out harder ? Maybe they combined a couple of different products to make magic. Until we know a lot more, maybe waiting for the truth is not such a bad thing.


   Drugs are still being used. I just read how many athletes at all levels now have ADHD...and a prescription for Adderall or Ritalin. Is a drug that gives someone an advantage on the field acceptable just because a doctor prescribed it? 


   I am happy MLB is finally addressing the issue...but there is a long way to go. I still think the Hall should be doing its job to preserve the history of the game...even the ugly history...by investigating what took place and then we can pick up this argument. 





The last thing i want to do is recommend anyone listen to Canseco but he has valid points.


HGH and anabolic steroids are two different things.


Stroids require you to take them in CYCLES. You have to cycle up and cycle down if you dont you risk serious inury. Steroids have to be taken the correct way or the user WILL GET HURT. Guys jumped on the wagon started taking alot of things hodge poge and bad things happened.


My favorite example of this is Ken Griffey Jr.

GO YANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10 years ago  ::  Jan 15, 2013 - 8:11AM #100
NW
Posts: 13,163

Jan 10, 2013 -- 8:18AM, NYYGuy wrote:

Right or wrong, the voters made a statement yesterday. Makes you wonder if A-Rod perhaps isn't the HOF lock that we all assumed. Andy Pettitte was never a HOF lock but hopefully his admitted hgh use doesn't hurt his chances....



A-Rod lied and discredited the game.  That's a lot different than a guy using a substance to help return from an injury.  A-Rod should never make the HOF and should be considered similar to Pete Rose and the Black Sox.  Pettitte's statistics are borderline HOF and the HGH use will tip the scales to keep him out.

Page 10 of 11  •  Prev 1 ... 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing

Yankees Forum