Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 4 of 11  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 3:31PM #31
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:08PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:00PM, newinn wrote:


If roid users should be kept out of the Hall, so should Pettitte.


 Still don't see how a written agreement between the players on that list should be broken for everyone because somehow names leaked. If you and I sign an agreement with a third party and somehow my name gets leaked, should that void your agreement? of course not, unless perhaps you were the leaker.





Not saying the list needs to be voided and the names released ... years back I had wished it were ... but I have since come to realize that there have to be players that didn't get caught that are not even on that list ... there have to be players that are playing right now that no one suspects, that have done PEDS ... and ultimately may get into the HOF ...


 


... hence, my point is that ALL players that deserve to be in the HOF should get in ... if they were proven to have done steroids, put an asterisk by their name ... but they should be allowed in ... because ultimately there are going to be players in the HOF that did PEDS but were never caught or are on that list and were never named.


 


It's simply unfair to keep out steroid users that were named, but allow other players to get in that no one has a clue if they were indeed found to have cheated, but were just lucky enough to never have their name leaked.





That's a very logical point of view Mo. I wasn't sure how I felt about this steroid stuff but your position makes the most sense to me

10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 3:33PM #32
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:13PM, yank0428 wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:02PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:31PM, yank0428 wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:11PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:21AM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Players like Bonds, Alex, etc. were serial steroid users, using for most of thier careers, with the primary goal to play way above what was humanly possible. They cheated the game.


Pettitte, his use was of a hormone to speed healing to get off the disabled list asap, not to get an edge in game. Andy can't be lumped in with these cheaters, regardless of whether the discussion is about the hall or not.


As for Andy and the HOF, hard to say, he is the winnigiest pitcher in the post season, he won 12 or more games in his 1st 9 seasons, won 20 games twice, 3x all star, but no Cy Young.  Then there is his career stats of 245-142, 3.86 ERA where he has more than 100 game difference between wins and losses.


Truly hard to predict how the voters will treat Andy, but as I stated above, Andy isn't Clemens, Alex or Bonds.




Agreed, Andy was no where NEAR the others in regards to use of hormones. In fact,if I;m correct, it wasnt illegal what he did when he did it. Not defending Alex but, her took them from 2001-2003, which is not most of his career or as long as Bonds alleged use was. As far as Andy and the HOF stats wise, there is no pitcher 100 games over .500 not in the HOF.




Joe I give Arod credit for admitting his use of PED's unlike Ortiz when outed but find it hard to believe that he only used those years and was totaly truthful when he admitted it. .He sure played like he was using his opt out year with the Yanks. Look back on his 2007 season. He was on fire the whole year.




Understood but, why admit to ANYTHING at all if youre not going to tell all? His "mistake" (as far as using) was opening his yap. Then again, thats A-Rod being A-Rod. Perhaps, the "solution" as far as the HOF is that these players have it listed on their plaques, that they used PEDs.



That or their own section. At the entrance wil be a couple of muslce bound Greek God types holding a bat .





Hey Yank! So who goes into this special section? All players from the steroid era, all those that admitted to doing roids, all those whos name was on the report that were lleaked, or those that are suspected. Very slippery slope imo.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 4:25PM #33
LiferYank
Posts: 6,728

Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:42PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


And who here has not taken their parents antibiotics? Please.


Andy was not some chemically enhanced factory ala Alex, Bonds, Sosa, etc. finding ways to both cheat the law as well as the game itself.


To me, guys like Bonds, Alex, etc. sought out ways to get a huge edge in the game. Their stats were enhanced so mightly they were inhuman. In no way can we say the same about Andy. Using modern medicine to come back from an injury is simply not the same as using to gain an edge both on the field and in the bank.


Andy used HGH as a band aid. Alex, Bonds, etc. used it to cheat the game, its history, and the signers of their checks.


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:56AM, NYYGuy wrote:


"Lets start with the fact that what Andy used to recover from an injury was not banned by baseball at the time of his usage."


 


No HGH itself wasn't banned, but using a prescription drug (which HGH was) without a valid prescription has been banned in MLB since the early 70's.


 


Unfortunately that's exactly what Andy did. The HGH was his father's prescription, not his. That's cheating.









If greenies were just "caffiene pills" then they would not be banned today. And Alex is "breaking down" from a thing called getting old ( for a baseball player). Players that play till they are almost 40 or over are the exception not the rule.



10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 4:48PM #34
yank0428
Posts: 18,446

Jan 10, 2013 -- 3:33PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:13PM, yank0428 wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:02PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:31PM, yank0428 wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 1:11PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:21AM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Players like Bonds, Alex, etc. were serial steroid users, using for most of thier careers, with the primary goal to play way above what was humanly possible. They cheated the game.


Pettitte, his use was of a hormone to speed healing to get off the disabled list asap, not to get an edge in game. Andy can't be lumped in with these cheaters, regardless of whether the discussion is about the hall or not.


As for Andy and the HOF, hard to say, he is the winnigiest pitcher in the post season, he won 12 or more games in his 1st 9 seasons, won 20 games twice, 3x all star, but no Cy Young.  Then there is his career stats of 245-142, 3.86 ERA where he has more than 100 game difference between wins and losses.


Truly hard to predict how the voters will treat Andy, but as I stated above, Andy isn't Clemens, Alex or Bonds.




Agreed, Andy was no where NEAR the others in regards to use of hormones. In fact,if I;m correct, it wasnt illegal what he did when he did it. Not defending Alex but, her took them from 2001-2003, which is not most of his career or as long as Bonds alleged use was. As far as Andy and the HOF stats wise, there is no pitcher 100 games over .500 not in the HOF.




Joe I give Arod credit for admitting his use of PED's unlike Ortiz when outed but find it hard to believe that he only used those years and was totaly truthful when he admitted it. .He sure played like he was using his opt out year with the Yanks. Look back on his 2007 season. He was on fire the whole year.




Understood but, why admit to ANYTHING at all if youre not going to tell all? His "mistake" (as far as using) was opening his yap. Then again, thats A-Rod being A-Rod. Perhaps, the "solution" as far as the HOF is that these players have it listed on their plaques, that they used PEDs.



That or their own section. At the entrance wil be a couple of muslce bound Greek God types holding a bat .





Hey Yank! So who goes into this special section? All players from the steroid era, all those that admitted to doing roids, all those whos name was on the report that were lleaked, or those that are suspected. Very slippery slope imo.




I was just joking New,we know that some will slip through the cracks. We know that not everyone who took them had builds like Canseco and McGwire. Knobloch took them, that skinny pitcher on the Mets took them. It is a slippery slope but I think what will happen is that the known and suspected are going to take the hit for awhile but then I think some down the road will get in. I don't think the most obvious ones like Sosa and McGwire will get in at all, Bonds and Clemens since most think they were great before their use might have a shot at some point but I think it will be a long way down the road.Probably when more younger writers get to vote.It's all screwed up no matter what. Now they are testing for HGH, watch the numbers drop even more. 

10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 5:23PM #35
78Bombers
Posts: 2,826

Sorry folks...drawing from my background in fitness.  Until recently there hasn't been a test to detect HGH use.  Several of my friends are pro-bodybuilders.  I knew all about steroid use in the late 80's (when it was prevalent in the minors)


In the industry HGH is considered a cheater's cheat...the drug of choice since it was indetectible.  


Whether you care to remember or not...The Rocket was Andy's idol.  Pettitte didn't train hard with weights until Roger joined the team.  Roger transformed Pettittes w/o rountine and whatever you believe Andy suddenly picked up 3 mph on his fastball.  They were training partners...I have one most serious guys have one.  (Ted Lilly threw up after trying to w/o with Rocket.)  They also have personal trainers....I train with a pro-bodybuilder - personal trainer once a week.  I have an ongoing shoulder issue...HGH has been brought up in the past as a solution.


HGH is rarely used alone...athletes using it also use a low dose of testosterone.  That's probably the best use for maximum benifit.  Chances are Rocket introduced Pettitte to the use of both.  


workout 101--couch potatoes listen...I love you guys but here's the thing.  People say, I'm going to the gym to build up muscle.  That's not what happens...you break down tissue, strengthen ligaments & tendons so you can break down more tissue.  When done properly...the body slowly builds up a stronger supporting structure including muscle to offset the demands being place on it by the bodybuilder...  HGH gives an athlete a huge advantage over all-natural athletes.  That's why they have all-natural classes in bodybuilding and the take it to the limit everything goes bodybuilder.  An all-natural bodybuider could not compete in the world of designer ped's with those that train with it.   Unfortunately hgh/steroid users try to compete in all-natural bodybuilding classes all the time.  They become experts at avoiding detection.


Andy cheated but offered a palatable county-boy excuse and some here accept it.  At the same time people don't accept A-Rod's explanation, it wasn't just the period of time...you see A-Rod is a bad guy...he'd run over your cat and go about his selfish business.  Andy would pick up you cat...drive it to the doctor and then before going to sleep at night, he'd pray for your cat and you.


HGH allows a shorter recovery time between workouts...why is that important?  Shorter recovery time allows the athlete to lift increasingly higher amounts of weights and build muscle faster than an all-natural athlete.


HGH is a higher level of cheating.  There's only been ONE POSTER on the yes board who could discuss steroid use on an advanced level.  I recall reading some intuitive posts from him.  I haven't seen him recently on the boards. 


But I guess for some A-Rod is the bad cheater all his life...Andy P good guy only wanted to help his team.  That's why Andy plays for peanuts.  He doesn't care about the money.  We think Ortiz' steroid use is bad...Redsox fans think he looking into the matter and is a good guy.  Some here think Andy was born a Yankee and thinks about you and I all the time.  Funny shyte.  I was at YS when Andy took his first start due to Jimmy Key injury...I followed his career closely since then.  Andy is one of the best big game pitchers that the Yanks ever had (Ford/Guidry/Pettitte).  He is not a saint and working out with Roger, not above the temptation of using peds to increase performance. 


Here's Andy with his training partner...







10 years ago  ::  Jan 10, 2013 - 6:57PM #36
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Jan 10, 2013 -- 2:42PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


And who here has not taken their parents antibiotics? Please.


Andy was not some chemically enhanced factory ala Alex, Bonds, Sosa, etc. finding ways to both cheat the law as well as the game itself.


To me, guys like Bonds, Alex, etc. sought out ways to get a huge edge in the game. Their stats were enhanced so mightly they were inhuman. In no way can we say the same about Andy. Using modern medicine to come back from an injury is simply not the same as using to gain an edge both on the field and in the bank.


Andy used HGH as a band aid. Alex, Bonds, etc. used it to cheat the game, its history, and the signers of their checks.


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:56AM, NYYGuy wrote:


"Lets start with the fact that what Andy used to recover from an injury was not banned by baseball at the time of his usage."


 


No HGH itself wasn't banned, but using a prescription drug (which HGH was) without a valid prescription has been banned in MLB since the early 70's.


 


Unfortunately that's exactly what Andy did. The HGH was his father's prescription, not his. That's cheating.








Agree totally re:Andy

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 12:07AM #37
doubleplay643
Posts: 6,115

And this is why Pettitte is going to find it hard to get into the HOF because of the debates here, are the same that the people that elect the people into the Hall, are going to feel the same way. You will have people that think what Pettitte took was "no big deal" and look at his character and numbers alone and then you'll have the other side, like New, who believe taking any type of drug was and still is cheating. This can go on forever and it's at the point where if this keeps up, even if your name is even remotely attached to any sort of drug that Baseball has banned, it's going to be tough to get into the HOF. 


Maybe by the time Pettitte is eligible the voters will soften their stance but right now, it's going to be tough getting in when any baseball player is linked to HGH or steroids. 

10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 5:52AM #38
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:07AM, doubleplay643 wrote:


And this is why Pettitte is going to find it hard to get into the HOF because of the debates here, are the same that the people that elect the people into the Hall, are going to feel the same way. You will have people that think what Pettitte took was "no big deal" and look at his character and numbers alone and then you'll have the other side, like New, who believe taking any type of drug was and still is cheating. This can go on forever and it's at the point where if this keeps up, even if your name is even remotely attached to any sort of drug that Baseball has banned, it's going to be tough to get into the HOF. 


Maybe by the time Pettitte is eligible the voters will soften their stance but right now, it's going to be tough getting in when any baseball player is linked to HGH or steroids. 





Hey DP! I have come to the conclusion that they all should get in but if they're going to keep Bonds and Clemens out, imo they have to keep Andy out also.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 8:19AM #39
ninja108
Posts: 4,118

 To me there's a bigger issue and that's the demonaztion of all players who played in the steroid era,whether they were guilty or not. That is unfair to them and also points to my beef in all this.


 In the past,pitchers tampered with the balls in a number of ways,put pine tar etc on their bats and used upper and downers,greenies etc to give them edges. If any baseball writer says with a straight face players back then wouldn't have used PEDS or Steroids if they had been available,they need to be stripped of their vote ASAP.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 9:10AM #40
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,326

Jan 11, 2013 -- 8:19AM, ninja108 wrote:


 To me there's a bigger issue and that's the demonaztion of all players who played in the steroid era,whether they were guilty or not. That is unfair to them and also points to my beef in all this.


 In the past,pitchers tampered with the balls in a number of ways,put pine tar etc on their bats and used upper and downers,greenies etc to give them edges. If any baseball writer says with a straight face players back then wouldn't have used PEDS or Steroids if they had been available,they need to be stripped of their vote ASAP.




Is PEDs going to make pitchers throw for strikes hitting the corners of plate?  It's not how hard you throw, it's having command of the strike zone.  Igawa can take all the PEDs he wants ...it's not going to turn him into Greg Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson, King Felix...etc  I know many abhor PEDs like I do.  With that said...with or without PEDs Clemens is a great pitcher.


Lets be reminded at the time of usage, it was not illegal. Since the word 'cheater' was thrown out there, they weren't actually cheaters since it wasn't illegal yet. Obviously the ban is in place ...anyone presently caught using will pay the consequences.  


To back track and hunt for users prior to making it illegal is ridiculous.  MLB/owners turn a blind eye while raking in the $$$$.  Now they're going back in time to deal out punishment??  It's like locking the barn door after the horse is gone. Give me a break.... unquestionably this is an ugly situation with difficult resolutions to decide HOF worthiness.

Page 4 of 11  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 11 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing

Yankees Forum