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A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 9:17AM #41
doubleplay643
Posts: 6,115

Jan 11, 2013 -- 5:52AM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:07AM, doubleplay643 wrote:


And this is why Pettitte is going to find it hard to get into the HOF because of the debates here, are the same that the people that elect the people into the Hall, are going to feel the same way. You will have people that think what Pettitte took was "no big deal" and look at his character and numbers alone and then you'll have the other side, like New, who believe taking any type of drug was and still is cheating. This can go on forever and it's at the point where if this keeps up, even if your name is even remotely attached to any sort of drug that Baseball has banned, it's going to be tough to get into the HOF. 


Maybe by the time Pettitte is eligible the voters will soften their stance but right now, it's going to be tough getting in when any baseball player is linked to HGH or steroids. 





Hey DP! I have come to the conclusion that they all should get in but if they're going to keep Bonds and Clemens out, imo they have to keep Andy out also.




It's hard and complicated but in the end, I think they should get in. From Clemens, Piazza to Pettitte. This whole not voting the first time but they may soften their stance in the second year just feels like a cop-out from the writers. What's going to change in one year? Some of this makes no sense to me. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 9:20AM #42
doubleplay643
Posts: 6,115

Jan 11, 2013 -- 9:10AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 8:19AM, ninja108 wrote:


 To me there's a bigger issue and that's the demonaztion of all players who played in the steroid era,whether they were guilty or not. That is unfair to them and also points to my beef in all this.


 In the past,pitchers tampered with the balls in a number of ways,put pine tar etc on their bats and used upper and downers,greenies etc to give them edges. If any baseball writer says with a straight face players back then wouldn't have used PEDS or Steroids if they had been available,they need to be stripped of their vote ASAP.




Is PEDs going to make pitchers throw for strikes hitting the corners of plate?  It's not how hard you throw is having command of the strike zone.  Igawa can take all the PEDs he wants ...it's not going to turn him into Greg Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson, King Felix...etc  I know many abhor PEDs like I do.  With that said...with or without PEDs Clemens is a great pitcher.


Lets be reminded at the time of usage, it was not illegal. Since the word 'cheater' was thrown out there, they weren't actually cheaters since it wasn't illegal yet. Obviously the ban is in place ...anyone presently caught using will pay the consequences.  To back track and hunt for users prior to making it illegal is ridiculous.  MLB/owners turn a blind eye while raking in the $$$$.  Now they going back in time to deal out punishment??  Give me a break.... this is an ugly situation with no resolution to correct it.






It is a ugly resolution and the next few years I feel the writers are going to be tougher and even someone that is closely linked will be punished. It's not going to matter if they confessed, they are just not going to be forgiving. Maybe over time though, their stance won't be as strong but I'm doubting it. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 9:30AM #43
IGotYouBabe
Posts: 485

Jan 10, 2013 -- 5:23PM, 78Bombers wrote:

Andy cheated but offered a palatable county-boy excuse and some here accept it.  At the same time people don't accept A-Rod's explanation, it wasn't just the period of time...you see A-Rod is a bad guy...he'd run over your cat and go about his selfish business.  Andy would pick up you cat...drive it to the doctor and then before going to sleep at night, he'd pray for your cat and you.


Good post, but you're comparing apples and oranges with this particular point. A-Rod admitted to years of PED abuse for the purpose of jacking up his natural ability -- intentional long-term cheating in other words. Andy admitted to one-time use for the purpose of speeding the healing process. No even comparable and nothing at all to do with their personalities/popularity.

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 9:52AM #44
laurenfrances
Posts: 46,510

Jan 11, 2013 -- 9:20AM, doubleplay643 wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 9:10AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 8:19AM, ninja108 wrote:


 To me there's a bigger issue and that's the demonaztion of all players who played in the steroid era,whether they were guilty or not. That is unfair to them and also points to my beef in all this.


 In the past,pitchers tampered with the balls in a number of ways,put pine tar etc on their bats and used upper and downers,greenies etc to give them edges. If any baseball writer says with a straight face players back then wouldn't have used PEDS or Steroids if they had been available,they need to be stripped of their vote ASAP.




Is PEDs going to make pitchers throw for strikes hitting the corners of plate?  It's not how hard you throw is having command of the strike zone.  Igawa can take all the PEDs he wants ...it's not going to turn him into Greg Maddux, Glavine, Randy Johnson, King Felix...etc  I know many abhor PEDs like I do.  With that said...with or without PEDs Clemens is a great pitcher.


Lets be reminded at the time of usage, it was not illegal. Since the word 'cheater' was thrown out there, they weren't actually cheaters since it wasn't illegal yet. Obviously the ban is in place ...anyone presently caught using will pay the consequences.  To back track and hunt for users prior to making it illegal is ridiculous.  MLB/owners turn a blind eye while raking in the $$$$.  Now they going back in time to deal out punishment??  Give me a break.... this is an ugly situation with no resolution to correct it.






It is a ugly resolution and the next few years I feel the writers are going to be tougher and even someone that is closely linked will be punished. It's not going to matter if they confessed, they are just not going to be forgiving. Maybe over time though, their stance won't be as strong but I'm doubting it. 




If a PED label is in place for elected players in the PED era,  are writers going to back track and place labels on Greenies era, Corked bat era, etc...... The point is every era has it's problems. PEDs definitely makes HOF worthiness a difficult proposition.  . 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 10:09AM #45
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 84,807

Jan 11, 2013 -- 8:19AM, ninja108 wrote:


 To me there's a bigger issue and that's the demonaztion of all players who played in the steroid era,whether they were guilty or not. That is unfair to them and also points to my beef in all this.


 In the past,pitchers tampered with the balls in a number of ways,put pine tar etc on their bats and used upper and downers,greenies etc to give them edges. If any baseball writer says with a straight face players back then wouldn't have used PEDS or Steroids if they had been available,they need to be stripped of their vote ASAP.





It's a bad situation ... impossible to know for sure who used and didn't use unless they are outed ... had to be plenty of players that were just lucky enough to never get caught ... horrible for everyone to get lumped together like this ... but I don't believe there is any way around it ... they were unlucky enough to have played in this era of PEDs, where almost everyone is suspect.

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:06AM #46
James52
Posts: 1,515

First of all, the HOF system must change. It's stupid to have more than 400 guys voting. And there are reports that a couple of journalist didn't vote for anyone, that's nonsense. The "you need 75% to get in" also needs to be removed. Otherwise, every year only like one or two guys will get in. Because of that Biggio got robbed.


Going back to the topic, what my solution could be is.. Let all the players that are rumored to have used PEDs BUT there is not a single evidence get in into the HOF.


For example, IMHO, Bonds SHOULD get in the HOF. OK, we all know he used it. But to date, there are just rumors, not real facts and evidence. Bonds was never caught red-handed and hasn't admitted to being a user yet, but anybody with a brain could tell he was using. So the "solution" is that if he gets into the HOF, there's got to be something in his plaque.


Clemens, in the other hand is more problematic. McNamee admitted he injected Clemens numerous times, but there's no evidence of that. We all know Clemens was a workout addict. He trained like an animal. So, his numbers are what it is because of the strict workout? Or the roids?


9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:44AM #47
newinn
Posts: 38,422

Just as an fyi, it really is an incredible honor to get voted in on the first ballot. Go back and look at the great names that weren't first ballot HOFers. I wouldn't be offeneded if Biggio and Piazza didn't get in on the first ballot if it weren't for suspicion of steroid use. I think the HOF has lowered the stadards way too much over the last 30 years or so. I think it would lower them even further by voting guys like Biggio in on the first ballot. IMO taking steroids out of the equation, 1st ballot should be reserved for guys like Jeter, Bonds, Clemons and Arod. In other words the games icons.

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:51AM #48
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

How exactly do you equate Bonds to Pettitte?


Bonds usage of steroids can publicly be traced to 1998 (while probably earlier in his career, this is what is known as fact). From the 1998 season until 2007 (10 Seasons which includes 2005 where he played in only 14 games) he accumulated 388 home runs, including 73 home runs at the age of 36. And 4 MVP's during the latter part of his career. This bests his previous 12 seasons (86-97) where he hits 374 home runs. 


Andy, uses HGH to heal from an injury in 2002, finishes the season at 13-5 and this is equal to skewing lifetime stats ala Alex, Bonds, Sosa, etc.?


Sorry, then I guess cortisone, which is a steroid should also make players ineligible if Andy has to wear this steroid scarlet letter like these other players. Your logic makes zero sense.


Jan 11, 2013 -- 5:52AM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:07AM, doubleplay643 wrote:


And this is why Pettitte is going to find it hard to get into the HOF because of the debates here, are the same that the people that elect the people into the Hall, are going to feel the same way. You will have people that think what Pettitte took was "no big deal" and look at his character and numbers alone and then you'll have the other side, like New, who believe taking any type of drug was and still is cheating. This can go on forever and it's at the point where if this keeps up, even if your name is even remotely attached to any sort of drug that Baseball has banned, it's going to be tough to get into the HOF. 


Maybe by the time Pettitte is eligible the voters will soften their stance but right now, it's going to be tough getting in when any baseball player is linked to HGH or steroids. 





Hey DP! I have come to the conclusion that they all should get in but if they're going to keep Bonds and Clemens out, imo they have to keep Andy out also.





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9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 11:56AM #49
luvdayanks
Posts: 31,065

Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:44AM, newinn wrote:


Just as an fyi, it really is an incredible honor to get voted in on the first ballot. Go back and look at the great names that weren't first ballot HOFers. I wouldn't be offeneded if Biggio and Piazza didn't get in on the first ballot if it weren't for suspicion of steroid use. I think the HOF has lowered the stadards way too much over the last 30 years or so. I think it would lower them even further by voting guys like Biggio in on the first ballot. IMO taking steroids out of the equation, 1st ballot should be reserved for guys like Jeter, Bonds, Clemons and Arod. In other words the games icons.





The HOF voting has become a joke. The HOF honors the history of baseball and it's players, and the steroid era was part of that history. Put them in with disclaimers, same as Rose should be in for his on field accomplishments. I think it's time to re-evaluate some of these jokers who vote, and take away their credentials. Some jack*** voted for a pitcher (can't remember his name) with a losing record and over 4 ERA.  You just know that when Jeter is eligible some jackwad will leave him off his ballot. Tongue Out

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 12:06PM #50
laurenfrances
Posts: 46,510

This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.

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