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A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 12:38PM #51
yank0428
Posts: 18,446

Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:06PM, laurenfrances wrote:


This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.




Bill Madden said yesterday in regards to Gaylord Perry and his spitball that it was gamesmenship. He didn't vote for him but had no problem with those who did.It's still cheating but not to the same level as turning a good player into an all time great. Bonds went from a great player into the best hitter I ever saw . At his steroid peak you couldn't get a strike past him.


 I do think Gossage needs to come off his holier then thou attitude. He's lucky he's in. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 1:07PM #52
doubleplay643
Posts: 6,115

You can see it that way with Pettite using it to heal himself to speed up his recovery, the writers might take a different stance and still say it's an illegal substance even though it wasn't banned in Baseball. This debate can go on forever and even guys that aren't as guilty as others will get punished right or wrong. If people can vote for Aaron Sele, things need to change. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 3:13PM #53
Paterson
Posts: 7,806

   Is their a distinction between drugs used to build muscles and drugs used to control emotions? Can a line be drawn between drugs that increase healing and those that promote growth? Does it matter if a doctor prescribed it? If it was obtained legally outside the USA? Does it matter if the player attained his records using a legal drug that later was banned? More questions here than answers.


   The mission statement of the Hall of Fame is much more expansive than just honoring the greats of the game. It is supposed to first serve the sport itself by being a research museum. Maybe the idea of s "steroid wing" of the Hall is a good idea. not done in a malicious way, but in an objective and dispassionate manner befitting of a research museum. Maybe the Hall can find a way to present objective information about the use of amphetamines, alcohol, and even now popular prescriptio of Ridalin etc. as well steroids and HGH.  


   One of our senior posters ends his messages with a quote that tells us 'knowledge is good'. This is the time for the HOF to expand our knowledge of the impact of drugs on baseball. With a better understanding, we can make better decisions on whether A Rod or anyone else belongs in the Hall. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 4:09PM #54
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:07AM, doubleplay643 wrote:


And this is why Pettitte is going to find it hard to get into the HOF because of the debates here, are the same that the people that elect the people into the Hall, are going to feel the same way. You will have people that think what Pettitte took was "no big deal" and look at his character and numbers alone and then you'll have the other side, like New, who believe taking any type of drug was and still is cheating. This can go on forever and it's at the point where if this keeps up, even if your name is even remotely attached to any sort of drug that Baseball has banned, it's going to be tough to get into the HOF. 


Maybe by the time Pettitte is eligible the voters will soften their stance but right now, it's going to be tough getting in when any baseball player is linked to HGH or steroids. 




IMO, Andy should get in period. BUT, we see it here on the board, when we talk about his stats, there are posters who think he may fall short. I always toss out the 100 games over 500 stat, in that there is no pitcher that ISNT in the hall with those stats. From my point of view, the "acid test" stats wise will be Mussina...another guy with 100+ over 500.....

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 4:13PM #55
JoeGNJ
Posts: 15,926

Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:56AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:44AM, newinn wrote:


Just as an fyi, it really is an incredible honor to get voted in on the first ballot. Go back and look at the great names that weren't first ballot HOFers. I wouldn't be offeneded if Biggio and Piazza didn't get in on the first ballot if it weren't for suspicion of steroid use. I think the HOF has lowered the stadards way too much over the last 30 years or so. I think it would lower them even further by voting guys like Biggio in on the first ballot. IMO taking steroids out of the equation, 1st ballot should be reserved for guys like Jeter, Bonds, Clemons and Arod. In other words the games icons.





The HOF voting has become a joke. The HOF honors the history of baseball and it's players, and the steroid era was part of that history. Put them in with disclaimers, same as Rose should be in for his on field accomplishments. I think it's time to re-evaluate some of these jokers who vote, and take away their credentials. Some jack*** voted for a pitcher (can't remember his name) with a losing record and over 4 ERA.  You just know that when Jeter is eligible some jackwad will leave him off his ballot. Tongue Out




I hope youre wrong about Jeter. With Pete Rose, I have a different view that you Luv. He's never had one ounce of remorse or shown any apology for what he did. IMO, should he get in? Yes but not until he's passed. He to this day is one SOB, for a variety of reasons. I dont think he should ever get to stand up and speak at his induction. Harsh, yes, but deserved IMO.

JoeGNJ - 2Timothy 4:7 - Acts 20:24
9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 4:36PM #56
ninja108
Posts: 4,118

Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:06PM, laurenfrances wrote:


This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.




 100% agreement with you. The excuses I've seen made for people who tampered with equipment or took greenies etc from many of the writers and old timers sickens me. If Goose and the others can say with a straight face that some players from their eras wouldn't have cheated,they're full of crap.


 Ken Davidoff had the best logic I've heard all week in that this generation of players shouldn't be tarred and feathered because the methods of cheating were better then they were in the past.

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 4:57PM #57
yank0428
Posts: 18,446

Jan 11, 2013 -- 4:13PM, JoeGNJ wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:56AM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 11:44AM, newinn wrote:


Just as an fyi, it really is an incredible honor to get voted in on the first ballot. Go back and look at the great names that weren't first ballot HOFers. I wouldn't be offeneded if Biggio and Piazza didn't get in on the first ballot if it weren't for suspicion of steroid use. I think the HOF has lowered the stadards way too much over the last 30 years or so. I think it would lower them even further by voting guys like Biggio in on the first ballot. IMO taking steroids out of the equation, 1st ballot should be reserved for guys like Jeter, Bonds, Clemons and Arod. In other words the games icons.





The HOF voting has become a joke. The HOF honors the history of baseball and it's players, and the steroid era was part of that history. Put them in with disclaimers, same as Rose should be in for his on field accomplishments. I think it's time to re-evaluate some of these jokers who vote, and take away their credentials. Some jack*** voted for a pitcher (can't remember his name) with a losing record and over 4 ERA.  You just know that when Jeter is eligible some jackwad will leave him off his ballot. Tongue Out




I hope youre wrong about Jeter. With Pete Rose, I have a different view that you Luv. He's never had one ounce of remorse or shown any apology for what he did. IMO, should he get in? Yes but not until he's passed. He to this day is one SOB, for a variety of reasons. I dont think he should ever get to stand up and speak at his induction. Harsh, yes, but deserved IMO.



Joe I saw Rose recently on a talk show promoting his new reality show. He admitted he was wrong with the betting and said he was sorry for what he did. He had no one to blame but himself. While saying it he still comes off as BS artist. IMO he was only doing it because he wants to be considered for the HOF some day and really what choice does he have. There is no question of his guilt. 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 5:12PM #58
Paterson
Posts: 7,806

Jan 11, 2013 -- 4:36PM, ninja108 wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:06PM, laurenfrances wrote:


This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.




 100% agreement with you. The excuses I've seen made for people who tampered with equipment or took greenies etc from many of the writers and old timers sickens me. If Goose and the others can say with a straight face that some players from their eras wouldn't have cheated,they're full of crap.


 Ken Davidoff had the best logic I've heard all week in that this generation of players shouldn't be tarred and feathered because the methods of cheating were better then they were in the past.




   Gossage is annoying as 'ell...agreed. But if you put up the plaque what is the message sent to evey dumb kid, and we are all dumb when we are 16, who wants to play ball? 

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 5:21PM #59
laurenfrances
Posts: 46,510

Jan 11, 2013 -- 4:36PM, ninja108 wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:06PM, laurenfrances wrote:


This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.




 100% agreement with you. The excuses I've seen made for people who tampered with equipment or took greenies etc from many of the writers and old timers sickens me. If Goose and the others can say with a straight face that some players from their eras wouldn't have cheated,they're full of crap.


 Ken Davidoff had the best logic I've heard all week in that this generation of players shouldn't be tarred and feathered because the methods of cheating were better then they were in the past.




Your post is dead on....The point is each era has it's degree of vices and it didn't prevent them from getting into baseball HOF.

9 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 6:23PM #60
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 84,807

Jan 11, 2013 -- 4:36PM, ninja108 wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 12:06PM, laurenfrances wrote:


This is what I found annoying as it relates to Goose Gosage comments on HOF worthiness. He stated nothing wrong with doctoring equipment as it offers ingenuity. Doctoring the body with PEDs is another matter and a sure fire way to get eliminated as HOF worthy. Just unbelievable ...doctoring equipment is not cheating?????? Love his rationality as he excuses players in his era.




 100% agreement with you. The excuses I've seen made for people who tampered with equipment or took greenies etc from many of the writers and old timers sickens me. If Goose and the others can say with a straight face that some players from their eras wouldn't have cheated,they're full of crap.


 Ken Davidoff had the best logic I've heard all week in that this generation of players shouldn't be tarred and feathered because the methods of cheating were better then they were in the past.





Both good posts.

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