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A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 7:22PM #71
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:16PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:08PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:02PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:58PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:42PM, newinn wrote:




I like the idea of no acceptance speech also and you could certainly do that with Rose, Bonds, Arod, Andy but what about the guys that are suspected users. Man this whole PEDS generation has sure had a negative effect on the game, from alltime cherished records that were shattered, to Hall of Fame inductions. I don't see any good answers




There are no good answers ... it's an ugly situation and the only answers that come out in the overall sentiment of fairness, always tend to look unfair in some light ... but I keep saying one thing, the era itself happened, it can't just be ignored by just not letting certain people in the Hall of Fame ... that's just ignoring the problem ... the problem has to be tackled and decisions have to be made ... and everyone is going to have to be satisfied with the fact that not everyone will be happy with the ultimate decisions made ... but it still important to make those decisions instead of ignoring things.





In the end I think I agree with the sentiment you expressed the other day that we should let them all in. I haven't cared much about the Hall for years but I find the steroid dilema challenging




I do believe they have to all be let in ... and one of the main reasons I believe that, is because we need to stop talking about the steroid era as if it's over ... they are still available ... the steroid era isn't over ... it's being dealed with now by MLB ... but you are still going to have great players that ultimately will be found out to have done some type of PED ... I would bet dollars to donuts on that one.




The HOF represents baseball history and the steroid era was/is part of baseball history therefore let them in with a bag full of asterisks. You're right, it will continue and does so now, look at just last year with Melky Cabrera and testoserone. I'm sure he's not the only one that's used that. It's a big game, test, find a way to beat the test, test again, move onto a new recipe of PED's.





The only thing I feel bad about is history will show Bonds as the all time HR leader, McGuwire will have erased Maris' accomplishment. Wont happen in our generation but records of the true greats of the game will be marginalized and that is a terrible loss for a sport that relies on historic accomplishments more then any other

10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 7:24PM #72
GottaGoToMo
Posts: 84,841

Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:22PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:16PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:08PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:02PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:58PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:42PM, newinn wrote:




I like the idea of no acceptance speech also and you could certainly do that with Rose, Bonds, Arod, Andy but what about the guys that are suspected users. Man this whole PEDS generation has sure had a negative effect on the game, from alltime cherished records that were shattered, to Hall of Fame inductions. I don't see any good answers




There are no good answers ... it's an ugly situation and the only answers that come out in the overall sentiment of fairness, always tend to look unfair in some light ... but I keep saying one thing, the era itself happened, it can't just be ignored by just not letting certain people in the Hall of Fame ... that's just ignoring the problem ... the problem has to be tackled and decisions have to be made ... and everyone is going to have to be satisfied with the fact that not everyone will be happy with the ultimate decisions made ... but it still important to make those decisions instead of ignoring things.





In the end I think I agree with the sentiment you expressed the other day that we should let them all in. I haven't cared much about the Hall for years but I find the steroid dilema challenging




I do believe they have to all be let in ... and one of the main reasons I believe that, is because we need to stop talking about the steroid era as if it's over ... they are still available ... the steroid era isn't over ... it's being dealed with now by MLB ... but you are still going to have great players that ultimately will be found out to have done some type of PED ... I would bet dollars to donuts on that one.




The HOF represents baseball history and the steroid era was/is part of baseball history therefore let them in with a bag full of asterisks. You're right, it will continue and does so now, look at just last year with Melky Cabrera and testoserone. I'm sure he's not the only one that's used that. It's a big game, test, find a way to beat the test, test again, move onto a new recipe of PED's.





The only thing I feel bad about is history will show Bonds as the all time HR leader, McGuwire will have erased Maris' accomplishment. Wont happen in our generation but records of the true greats of the game will be marginalized and that is a terrible loss for a sport that relies on historic accomplishments more then any other




Ditto.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 11, 2013 - 7:29PM #73
luvdayanks
Posts: 31,213

Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:22PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:16PM, luvdayanks wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:08PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 7:02PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:58PM, GottaGoToMo wrote:


Jan 11, 2013 -- 6:42PM, newinn wrote:




I like the idea of no acceptance speech also and you could certainly do that with Rose, Bonds, Arod, Andy but what about the guys that are suspected users. Man this whole PEDS generation has sure had a negative effect on the game, from alltime cherished records that were shattered, to Hall of Fame inductions. I don't see any good answers




There are no good answers ... it's an ugly situation and the only answers that come out in the overall sentiment of fairness, always tend to look unfair in some light ... but I keep saying one thing, the era itself happened, it can't just be ignored by just not letting certain people in the Hall of Fame ... that's just ignoring the problem ... the problem has to be tackled and decisions have to be made ... and everyone is going to have to be satisfied with the fact that not everyone will be happy with the ultimate decisions made ... but it still important to make those decisions instead of ignoring things.





In the end I think I agree with the sentiment you expressed the other day that we should let them all in. I haven't cared much about the Hall for years but I find the steroid dilema challenging




I do believe they have to all be let in ... and one of the main reasons I believe that, is because we need to stop talking about the steroid era as if it's over ... they are still available ... the steroid era isn't over ... it's being dealed with now by MLB ... but you are still going to have great players that ultimately will be found out to have done some type of PED ... I would bet dollars to donuts on that one.




The HOF represents baseball history and the steroid era was/is part of baseball history therefore let them in with a bag full of asterisks. You're right, it will continue and does so now, look at just last year with Melky Cabrera and testoserone. I'm sure he's not the only one that's used that. It's a big game, test, find a way to beat the test, test again, move onto a new recipe of PED's.





The only thing I feel bad about is history will show Bonds as the all time HR leader, McGuwire will have erased Maris' accomplishment. Wont happen in our generation but records of the true greats of the game will be marginalized and that is a terrible loss for a sport that relies on historic accomplishments more then any other




You're right new, that is a sad fact. I compare it to my passion for my classic cars and the fact that in another generation will anyone care or respect a 65 GTO??? Probably not it will be marginalized.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:06AM #74
HeatMiser
Posts: 2,999

Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:59AM #75
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 4:03AM #76
HeatMiser
Posts: 2,999

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


If ones kills a man does it make any difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle?




Nobody hit 40 home runs with a switchblade (let alone 50, 60 or 70).


Plenty did with the rifle.





10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:30PM #77
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.





-------------------------
T15D23

- 11/25/03 GBMA

- 6/11/04 GBCJ

- 6/9/07 God Bless Leo

- 10/16/07 God Bless Huck

- 11/12/11 God Bless Mom

- 09/24/14 God Bless Dad

-------------------------
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:45PM #78
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:50PM #79
AJPP
Posts: 2,651

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.



Good post, newinn

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 1:54PM #80
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:50PM, AJPP wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.



Good post, newinn





T, tends to post as if his opinions are facts and far more valuable and important then everyone else. He has about as much wiggle room as Hal

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