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A-Rod, Pettitte and the HOF
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:11PM #81
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.



10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:34PM #82
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

Sorry if  common sense confuses some around here.


Maybe I should further simplify.


Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Based on your logic, they both should be jailed for using a "gun."


Guessing you believe that a candy cigarette should be banned from public spaces like tobacco cigarettes, because, well they both have "cigarette" in their description.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.





-------------------------
T15D23

- 11/25/03 GBMA

- 6/11/04 GBCJ

- 6/9/07 God Bless Leo

- 10/16/07 God Bless Huck

- 11/12/11 God Bless Mom

- 09/24/14 God Bless Dad

-------------------------
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:36PM #83
78Bombers
Posts: 2,826

Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:54PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:50PM, AJPP wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.



Good post, newinn





T, tends to post as if his opinions are facts and far more valuable and important then everyone else. He has about as much wiggle room as Hal




Gotta love the modern medicine line...


leaving for the gym now, I always train all-natural but there are a couple guys there on Sat that I think must use the modern medicine


It looks like MLB has taken a hard line on HGH with blood testing.  When Andy used HGH there was no test that could detect it.  McNamee's testimony opened up the discussion.   Using HGH in 2002 indicated to me that Andy had a higher level of understanding of peds than just deca or dianabol that many athletes used.  Bonds used the clear/Andy HGH.  Please respond if you get what I'm saying.   If you don't, this conversation will be around as long as the game is played.  It's unfortunate that this is the case but so is ignorance on this matter. 



Synthetic HGH & anabolic steroids give the athlete an unfair advantage over an all-natural athlete.  To even have to discuss it is silly.   Hardcore gyms are full of users & all-natural bodybuilders who can discuss this issue intelligently.  Unfortunately, I don't see much understanding of peds on this board or in this thread in particular. 


I hope that at least some of you take the time to train hard and natural at the gym...it really improves your health.  Much of the rest of life's inputs are pure bs.  Train hard, eat well and just maybe you'll stay young forever.


 

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:38PM #84
newinn
Posts: 38,547

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:34PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry if  common sense confuses some around here.


Maybe I should further simplify.


Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Based on your logic, they both should be jailed for using a "gun."


Guessing you believe that a candy cigarette should be banned from public spaces like tobacco cigarettes, because, well they both have "cigarette" in their description.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.








Exactly! I'm a firm believer in banning candy cigarettes. Do you think you could simplify it just a little more for us simpletons?

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:42PM #85
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:46AM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Lets start with the fact that what Andy used to recover from an injury was not banned by baseball at the time of his usage. Nor did he use it to improve his game in season. Otherwise I would agree with you.


Uppers do not increase body mass, do not allow for quick muscle recovery, etc. so no, greenies, which is nothing more than caffiene pills, ain't nothing.


Alex has been using from the beginning of his career, if not from HS. His 3 year admission was nothing more than a political move as he was baseball's last great hope to recover from the cheating Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, etc. 


And Alex would not be breaking down the way he is if he used for just 3 years. 


As for Andy, you can enlighten yourself with this article:


bleacherreport.com/articles/1108809-andy...


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:31AM, LiferYank wrote:


Jan 10, 2013 -- 11:21AM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Players like Bonds, Alex, etc. were serial steroid users, using for most of thier careers, with the primary goal to play way above what was humanly possible. They cheated the game.


Pettitte, his use was of a hormone to speed healing to get off the disabled list asap, not to get an edge in game. Andy can't be lumped in with these cheaters, regardless of whether the discussion is about the hall or not.


As for Andy and the HOF, hard to say, he is the winnigiest pitcher in the post season, he won 12 or more games in his 1st 9 seasons, won 20 games twice, 3x all star, but no Cy Young.  Then there is his career stats of 245-142, 3.86 ERA where he has more than 100 game difference between wins and losses.


Truly hard to predict how the voters will treat Andy, but as I stated above, Andy isn't Clemens, Alex or Bonds.





How the hell is cheating to come back faster from an injury not cheating? And you have zero evidence that Bonds nor Alex were using for most of their careers. Bonds and the end is obvious and Arod admitted to 3 years but that is hardly most of their careers.



Greenies were used from around the 50's on and are now banned. I guess we need to just take everyone from the 50's on and boot them out of the hall for cheating ( sarcasm)








HGH must not be a safe substance, otherwise I don't see why it's banned if it only enhances healing. If it's a safe substance, banning it is like banning antibiotics. There must be something about HGH that warrants banning.  

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:43PM #86
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

You are extremely focused on the word cheating.


Are you cheating if Nike makes you a special shoe that provides better ankle support and cushioning that is unavailable to other players? Or if Under Armor makes you a special batting glove that provices a better grip that is also not available to others? Is it cheating if you work out 7 days a week if the standard is 3 days a week?


To protect those that have seriously sinned in the game, you want to cast a wide net to those who not only used to recover for a singular reason and roll it up to include those who used vaseline on a ball. This is extremely disingenious.


Therefore and based on your logic, a person who shoplifts should meet with the same end as one who commits murder or what you are bloviating, they both should meet a slap on the wrist, because both are crimes.


Luckily, this thinking only applies to the failing state of California.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:11PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.







-------------------------
T15D23

- 11/25/03 GBMA

- 6/11/04 GBCJ

- 6/9/07 God Bless Leo

- 10/16/07 God Bless Huck

- 11/12/11 God Bless Mom

- 09/24/14 God Bless Dad

-------------------------
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:49PM #87
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:43PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


You are extremely focused on the word cheating.


Are you cheating if Nike makes you a special shoe that provides better ankle support and cushioning that is unavailable to other players? Or if Under Armor makes you a special batting glove that provices a better grip that is also not available to others? Is it cheating if you work out 7 days a week if the standard is 3 days a week?


To protect those that have seriously sinned in the game, you want to cast a wide net to those who not only used to recover for a singular reason and roll it up to include those who used vaseline on a ball. This is extremely disingenious.


Therefore and based on your logic, a person who shoplifts should meet with the same end as one who commits murder or what you are bloviating, they both should meet a slap on the wrist, because both are crimes.


Luckily, this thinking only applies to the failing state of California.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:11PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.










Unless I'm mistaken...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference. 

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 2:53PM #88
laurenfrances
Posts: 47,322

Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:34PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry if  common sense confuses some around here.


Maybe I should further simplify.


Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Based on your logic, they both should be jailed for using a "gun."


Guessing you believe that a candy cigarette should be banned from public spaces like tobacco cigarettes, because, well they both have "cigarette" in their description.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.








Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Except one is a weapon and the other is a toy.  Under guidelines Steroids and HGH are PEDs...neither of them are toys. By they way...Pettitte is one of my favorite Yankees.  Using HGH has not change it.....


Opinions varies in regards to PEDs, it certainly muddles the process. Lately I'm beginning to see the validity of Sabathia's comments.   As Sabathia stated...if the numbers are there let them in HOF..all eras has it's vices.


 Unless you want to go back in time to void some players voted.


Here's another thought to muddle the process..is it cheating when there was no ruling prior to using PEDs...  

10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 3:30PM #89
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

Punting the questions in my post does nothing to maintain or further your position.


Cheating is a crime. So is shoplifting. So is murder.


To assist further, you are attempting to cast a huge, wide net across all players and eras to not convict them, but to exonerate the most vile abusers to this sport which includes Bonds, Alex, Sosa, Clemens, etc. Their intent was to inflate their numbers well beyond their God given level of talent.


It is those players who should be erased from the history of the sport. Not enshrined with those who came before them.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:49PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:43PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


You are extremely focused on the word cheating.


Are you cheating if Nike makes you a special shoe that provides better ankle support and cushioning that is unavailable to other players? Or if Under Armor makes you a special batting glove that provices a better grip that is also not available to others? Is it cheating if you work out 7 days a week if the standard is 3 days a week?


To protect those that have seriously sinned in the game, you want to cast a wide net to those who not only used to recover for a singular reason and roll it up to include those who used vaseline on a ball. This is extremely disingenious.


Therefore and based on your logic, a person who shoplifts should meet with the same end as one who commits murder or what you are bloviating, they both should meet a slap on the wrist, because both are crimes.


Luckily, this thinking only applies to the failing state of California.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:11PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Define the word"cheating"...in the end it doesn't matter which mode is available cheating is cheating. Two student takes an exam, both got a hold of the questions/answers by different means, one via current electronical means other via breaking into faculty space..in the end the both cheated. As with baseball..one cheat by doctoring equipment and the other by doctoring self.  In the end it's still cheating!!!!!  It's like a woman saying is a little bit pregnant, either she is or she isn't ..... no middle ground


You make it sound like baseball players of yesteryear are less tenacious when it come to deception.  Make no mistake if PEDs was available in previous eras same results will occur.  


FYI...



cheat






1.to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2.to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3.to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.










Unless I'm mistaken...stealing is a different crime than murder or cheating....Check your dictionary.....I believe you will find the difference. 





-------------------------
T15D23

- 11/25/03 GBMA

- 6/11/04 GBCJ

- 6/9/07 God Bless Leo

- 10/16/07 God Bless Huck

- 11/12/11 God Bless Mom

- 09/24/14 God Bless Dad

-------------------------
10 years ago  ::  Jan 12, 2013 - 3:45PM #90
T15D23A46
Posts: 5,953

But they both have the word "gun" in them!


Performance Enhancing Drugs. An aspirin could be argued that it is a PED. It takes away physical pain allowing you to perform. Creatine does the same, it allows for quick muscle recovery allowing you to workout more (it is not banned by MLB by the way). 


What you are either refusing to see or understand, is that in the case of Andy, he used it as an aspirin, whereas Alex, Bonds, etc. used it to perform above their God given talent for extended periods of time (decade plus). Their intent was to cheat the game, its records and its overall outcome. Can the same be said about Andy?


As for CC's thinking, I disagree fully. Those numbers came by way of manipulation and the game needs to correct that by striking them after a full investigation that they can factually cite with proof what we all know. They turned a blind eye to the usage to get fans back to the game after the 1994 strike.


These players enjoyed the money, fame for the time they fooled everyone. To allow future generations to be fooled would be criminal. 


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:53PM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:34PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry if  common sense confuses some around here.


Maybe I should further simplify.


Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Based on your logic, they both should be jailed for using a "gun."


Guessing you believe that a candy cigarette should be banned from public spaces like tobacco cigarettes, because, well they both have "cigarette" in their description.


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:45PM, newinn wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 1:30PM, T15D23A46 wrote:


Sorry, there are levels.


Bonds, Alex, etc. are chemical factories whereby they were able to defy their natural limits, expand them, recover immediately and distort all reality.


Vaseline, scuffing, greenies, tipping pitches are gnats on the game. Steroids are a nuclear bomb.


For the last 20 years + the game, its trace to historical stats, etc. have been annihilated by steroids.


And there is a distinction between taking to recover and taking to transform yourself. 


If one cannot discern between them, they are being completely and utterly disingenious.



Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:59AM, laurenfrances wrote:


Jan 12, 2013 -- 2:06AM, HeatMiser wrote:


Like the man said, the difference between steroids and greenies is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.


Same goes for cork, Vaseline, or any other absurd comparison.




The mentally of cheating is still there regardless of the mode. If PEDs was available in years past, you can bet it'll be utilized. You are in denial if you think otherwise as all that was available in past eras was corked bats and vaseline. 


If ones kills a man does it make a difference if he uses a old fashion switch blade or a semi automatic rifle? The end results are the same.  Modern technology devised a more sophisticated deadly method to serve the same purpose.... to kill.   By the way, the guy using a switch blade also goes to jail for murder. Murder is murder as cheating is cheating regardless of the mode used.








Sorry, you don't set the criteria for everyone. Only you seem to be the one to determine what's cheating  and only you seem to be able to determine that Bonds was really a cheater but Andy wasn't.








Bonds used a an AK-47, Andy used a water gun. Both are guns and deliver far different effects.


Except one is a weapon and the other is a toy.  Under guidelines Steroids and HGH are PEDs...neither of them are toys. By they way...Pettitte is one of my favorite Yankees.  Using HGH has not change it.....


Opinions varies in regards to PEDs, it certainly muddles the process. Lately I'm beginning to see the validity of Sabathia's comments.   As Sabathia stated...if the numbers are there let them in HOF..all eras has it's vices.


 Unless you want to go back in time to void some players voted.


Here's another thought to muddle the process..is it cheating when there was no ruling prior to using PEDs...  





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