Why isn'tLefty Gomez's number retired? He was every bit as good as Guidry, if not better. We could let Gardner hang onto the number until the end of the season and retire it on Opening Day next year.
You're wrong about Munson, but you have a point about Gomez. He was way better than Guidry. Somtimes it's not who's the best but who's the most recent to play. It's why a few years ago Nolan Ryan was voted the best Picher of all time. A joke, since there were years that he wasn't even the best Pitcher on his team.
A lot of that goes to Ryan's longevity, which accounted for the many no-hitters and strikeouts. Can you imagine Koufax's numbers if he had a 25-year injury-free career?
Different eras, different pitchers. Best of their eras? Johnson, Feller, Koufax, Maddux and who today? I picked each name as the last pitcher of their era you'd want to face in a 7th game.
IMO, Kershaw has the best chance to join that list.
Why isn'tLefty Gomez's number retired? He was every bit as good as Guidry, if not better. We could let Gardner hang onto the number until the end of the season and retire it on Opening Day next year.
You're wrong about Munson, but you have a point about Gomez. He was way better than Guidry. Somtimes it's not who's the best but who's the most recent to play. It's why a few years ago Nolan Ryan was voted the best Picher of all time. A joke, since there were years that he wasn't even the best Pitcher on his team.
A lot of that goes to Ryan's longevity, which accounted for the many no-hitters and strikeouts. Can you imagine Koufax's numbers if he had a 25-year injury-free career?
Koufax is one of the best, there's also Cy Young. Hard to say who's the best Picher of all time but I know it's not Ryan. Besides the names already mentioned I'd take Seaver, Gibson and a few others over Ryan.
You mentioned Cy Young. He owns the record that's least likely to be broken. Most will say it's Johnny Vander Meer's 2 consecutive no-hitters, but I think somebody will throw 3 no-no's in a row before someone beats Young's 749 complete games.
The only Yankee numbers that should be retired are 3,4,5,7,8 and 16. Period. Yankee legends. If you say the name and don't get a chill down your spine the number should not be retired.
Not temporary hires like Martinez or Jackson. Jackson played 5 years with New York out of a total of 21 seasons. In those 5 seasons he hit 100 RBIs twice, hit over 32 HRs once, and hit.300 once. Let's face it, he wasn't all that great with New York; he got his number retired for one thing only: Game 6 of the '77 Series.
Not mediocrities like Rizzuto.
Not very-good players like Mattingly, Guidry and Howard (how does one hit .287 with 85 RBIs and become the MVP?) who all had 3 or 4 great seasons and then a long, slow decline.
And not Munson. Again, a very good player, with 113 HRs in 11 seasons and already in decline for a couple of years at the time of his tragic demise.
Mattingly, Guidry, Howard and Munson all should have a plaque in the Yankees HOF, but no retired numbers.
And please, no managers.
I had an instinct to say "No Hall of Fame, no retired number" but undeserved inductions like Mazeroski, Dawson and yes, Phil Rizzuto made that a non-starter.
Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra and Whitey. Anyone who says any of those other names belongs in that roll call is deluded.
Stewiw,
You don't understand what is going on.
1. The retired numbers were a traditional honor created by the team. When George got mad at the Hall of Fame, he started his own Hall of Fame for the Yankees, hence all of the retiring numbers since 1974.
2. Phil Rizzutto is a Hall of Famer and 1950 AL MVP Award winner. The head of the HOF Veterans Comittee Ted Williams stated that Phil could beat you with his bat and glove, if the Red Sox had him on their team, they would have beaten the Yankee teams they played against in the 1940-1950's.
3. Munson was honored for his career that was cut down early. As Yankee Captain he played the game hard and proud. He showed the leadership that the team needed on the field. The other players in MLB respected him for that. He showed the Royals in the AL Playoffs that he wouldn't allow his teammates to be mistreated, the Willie Randolph incident at 2B, at his next at bat, Munson came into 3B with his spikes knee high at Royals 3B George Brett, letting them be known that their kind of play would not be tolerated.
4. Elston Howard was the 1st Black Yankees player in 1955. He was the 1954 MVP of International League while playing at Toronto, before his Yankee rookie season in 1955. His career was a good one which included a AL MVP Award and All Star team appearences. During Howard's playing time the MVP award was usually given to a member of the AL Championship team.
5. As for Managers, Miller Huggins was honor for his work and early death in 1929, he joined the HOF in 1948. Casey Stengel didn't want his uniform number retired, he wanted a young Yankee player to wear it., but George still retired it.
Clipper
Clipper,
Actually, I understand perfectly. Allow me to address your points, one by one.
1. George did a lot of things, some brilliant, some not so brilliant. I have a very different idea about what it should take to retire a number: that it should be reserved for the best of the best of the best. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Berra, Ford and Mantle. No one of their caliber has worn a Yankee uniform since, with the possible probable exception of Jeter.
2. Rizzuto had one great season and a lot of so-so ones. He was a lifetime .273 hitter, averaging 43 RBIs and less than 3 HRs per season. A very good fielder with few hits and almost zero power. Ted Williams, whose middle name was Hyperbole, could say whatever he wants: Rizzuto was not HOF material, or worthy of a retired number. The Hall of Fame membership is replete with dumb selections like, recently, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice and Bill Mazeroski. Rizzuto's was another one.
3. I have said repeatedly that Munson had an exemplary attitude towards the game and that he was a hard-nosed competitor who would do whatever it took to achieve victory. But his numbers don't support a retired number and his HOF candidacies peaked at 15% of the vote, far short of the 75% required.
4. Mentioning Howard's skin color baffles me (beside the fact that he came to the Yankees eight years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier). Retired numbers are for elite performance on the field. I don't think Ellie would have reacted very well if a Yankee official had approached him and said "You've been a great player, but your performance doesn't reach the level associated with retiring a number. We're going to retire your number anyway, because you were the first African-American Yankee." Granting (or denying) opportunities or privileges based solely, or even partially, on skin color is the definition of racism.
5. As far as managers are concerned, it's my opinion that retired numbers should be left to those who perform on the field, period.
Yours in sport,
Stewie
Stewie,
The game is more than just numbers, it's about the character and ability of the player, what they bring to the playing field and team clubhouse. That's what made Lou Gehrig a great Team Captain and leader. Munson carried on the tradition of a veteran Yankees player teaching a younger player how to play, he had been working with Catcher Mike Heath before his 1978 fall trade to the Rangers to be his successor behind the plate.
The case for Phil is that you never saw him as a player, just the memory of an old team announcer. His ability on the playing field with the 5 skills that were needed to play in MLB during his era was great, many of today's players sadly lack these skills. Phil and Pee Wee Reese (Dodgers) were considered to be the best shortstops in the MLB. He led the 1949-1950 AL shortstops in fielding. With the 1941-1956 Yankees batting line-up, the team need a fine defensive shortstop, they had their HR power hitters with DiMaggio and Company. Remember power hitting shortstops were not the rage until the 1970-1980's.
Manager does perform on the field Huggins, Stengel, Martin, Torre and others were former MLB players, while Joe McCarthy was not. It was Manager Casey Stengel who taught a young Mickey Mantle how to play the outfield at Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds for World Series play.
Elston Howard came up to the Yankees in 1955, after winning the 1954 International League's MVP Award with the AAA Toronto Maple Leafs. Howard's player movement was delayed due to GM George Weiss long quest of finding the 1st "perfect black" Yankee player. The team had bought his playing contract in 1950 from the Kansas City Monarchs, he was converted from OF to catcher by HOF Yankees Coach Bill Dickey. Weiss' quest cost them a chance to sign other star black players like future HOF INF Ernie Banks and RF Roberto Clemente. One of the new Yankee team Owners Larry McPhail (1945-1947) had immediately started signing black players for the team when they bought the team, realizing their playing talent. By 1954, GM Weiss released or traded away most of the black players that were signed by the team only keeping Elston Howard. He had traded away future AL All Star 1B Vic Power in 1953, who won many Golden Gloves in the 1950's with the A's and Indians. He had outplayed Bill Skowron at AAA Kansas City Blues, winning the American Association's Batting Championship. He was considered too loud and flashy by GM Weiss to be the 1st black Yankee player. Also he released P Ruben Gomez in the spring of 1951, who won 17 games for the 1954 New York Giants.
Elston Howard was respected and loved by his Yankee teammates from the 1st season on that he wore Yankee pinstripes, he had to wait until the 1960 season to become the Yankees regular catcher. The MLB didn't fully break the color line until 1959 seasonwith the Tigers and Red Sox joined with adding black players in their team playing rosters. In 1958, he won the Babe Ruth Award for his World Series play against the Braves. Howard was the 1963 AL MVP Award winner, he led the AL Catchers in fielding in 1962-1964. In 1963, he was 1st Yankee catcher win a Golden Glove, something that Yogi never did in his long Yankee career as a catcher. In the fall of 1968, he became the 1st Black Yankees MLB Coach. I believe that Howard would have been a MLB Manager before his early death in 1980 stopped that dream.
The only Yankee numbers that should be retired are 3,4,5,7,8 and 16. Period. Yankee legends. If you say the name and don't get a chill down your spine the number should not be retired.
Not temporary hires like Martinez or Jackson. Jackson played 5 years with New York out of a total of 21 seasons. In those 5 seasons he hit 100 RBIs twice, hit over 32 HRs once, and hit.300 once. Let's face it, he wasn't all that great with New York; he got his number retired for one thing only: Game 6 of the '77 Series.
Not mediocrities like Rizzuto.
Not very-good players like Mattingly, Guidry and Howard (how does one hit .287 with 85 RBIs and become the MVP?) who all had 3 or 4 great seasons and then a long, slow decline.
And not Munson. Again, a very good player, with 113 HRs in 11 seasons and already in decline for a couple of years at the time of his tragic demise.
Mattingly, Guidry, Howard and Munson all should have a plaque in the Yankees HOF, but no retired numbers.
And please, no managers.
I had an instinct to say "No Hall of Fame, no retired number" but undeserved inductions like Mazeroski, Dawson and yes, Phil Rizzuto made that a non-starter.
Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra and Whitey. Anyone who says any of those other names belongs in that roll call is deluded.
Stewiw,
You don't understand what is going on.
1. The retired numbers were a traditional honor created by the team. When George got mad at the Hall of Fame, he started his own Hall of Fame for the Yankees, hence all of the retiring numbers since 1974.
2. Phil Rizzutto is a Hall of Famer and 1950 AL MVP Award winner. The head of the HOF Veterans Comittee Ted Williams stated that Phil could beat you with his bat and glove, if the Red Sox had him on their team, they would have beaten the Yankee teams they played against in the 1940-1950's.
3. Munson was honored for his career that was cut down early. As Yankee Captain he played the game hard and proud. He showed the leadership that the team needed on the field. The other players in MLB respected him for that. He showed the Royals in the AL Playoffs that he wouldn't allow his teammates to be mistreated, the Willie Randolph incident at 2B, at his next at bat, Munson came into 3B with his spikes knee high at Royals 3B George Brett, letting them be known that their kind of play would not be tolerated.
4. Elston Howard was the 1st Black Yankees player in 1955. He was the 1954 MVP of International League while playing at Toronto, before his Yankee rookie season in 1955. His career was a good one which included a AL MVP Award and All Star team appearences. During Howard's playing time the MVP award was usually given to a member of the AL Championship team.
5. As for Managers, Miller Huggins was honor for his work and early death in 1929, he joined the HOF in 1948. Casey Stengel didn't want his uniform number retired, he wanted a young Yankee player to wear it., but George still retired it.
Clipper
Clipper,
Actually, I understand perfectly. Allow me to address your points, one by one.
1. George did a lot of things, some brilliant, some not so brilliant. I have a very different idea about what it should take to retire a number: that it should be reserved for the best of the best of the best. Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Berra, Ford and Mantle. No one of their caliber has worn a Yankee uniform since, with the possible probable exception of Jeter.
2. Rizzuto had one great season and a lot of so-so ones. He was a lifetime .273 hitter, averaging 43 RBIs and less than 3 HRs per season. A very good fielder with few hits and almost zero power. Ted Williams, whose middle name was Hyperbole, could say whatever he wants: Rizzuto was not HOF material, or worthy of a retired number. The Hall of Fame membership is replete with dumb selections like, recently, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice and Bill Mazeroski. Rizzuto's was another one.
3. I have said repeatedly that Munson had an exemplary attitude towards the game and that he was a hard-nosed competitor who would do whatever it took to achieve victory. But his numbers don't support a retired number and his HOF candidacies peaked at 15% of the vote, far short of the 75% required.
4. Mentioning Howard's skin color baffles me (beside the fact that he came to the Yankees eight years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier). Retired numbers are for elite performance on the field. I don't think Ellie would have reacted very well if a Yankee official had approached him and said "You've been a great player, but your performance doesn't reach the level associated with retiring a number. We're going to retire your number anyway, because you were the first African-American Yankee." Granting (or denying) opportunities or privileges based solely, or even partially, on skin color is the definition of racism.
5. As far as managers are concerned, it's my opinion that retired numbers should be left to those who perform on the field, period.
Yours in sport,
Stewie
Stewie,
The game is more than just numbers, it's about the character and ability of the player, what they bring to the playing field and team clubhouse. That's what made Lou Gehrig a great Team Captain and leader. Munson carried on the tradition of a veteran Yankees player teaching a younger player how to play, he had been working with Catcher Mike Heath before his 1978 fall trade to the Rangers to be his successor behind the plate.
The case for Phil is that you never saw him as a player, just the memory of an old team announcer. His ability on the playing field with the 5 skills that were needed to play in MLB during his era was great, many of today's players sadly lack these skills. Phil and Pee Wee Reese (Dodgers) were considered to be the best shortstops in the MLB. He led the 1949-1950 AL shortstops in fielding. With the 1941-1956 Yankees batting line-up, the team need a fine defensive shortstop, they had their HR power hitters with DiMaggio and Company. Remember power hitting shortstops were not the rage until the 1970-1980's.
Manager does perform on the field Huggins, Stengel, Martin, Torre and others were former MLB players, while Joe McCarthy was not. It was Manager Casey Stengel who taught a young Mickey Mantle how to play the outfield at Ebbets Field and the Polo Grounds for World Series play.
Elston Howard came up to the Yankees in 1955, after winning the 1954 International League's MVP Award with the AAA Toronto Maple Leafs. Howard's player movement was delayed due to GM George Weiss long quest of finding the 1st "perfect black" Yankee player. The team had bought his playing contract in 1950 from the Kansas City Monarchs, he was converted from OF to catcher by HOF Yankees Coach Bill Dickey. Weiss' quest cost them a chance to sign other star black players like future HOF INF Ernie Banks and RF Roberto Clemente. One of the new Yankee team Owners Larry McPhail (1945-1947) had immediately started signing black players for the team when they bought the team, realizing their playing talent. By 1954, GM Weiss released or traded away most of the black players that were signed by the team only keeping Elston Howard. He had traded away future AL All Star 1B Vic Power in 1953, who won many Golden Gloves in the 1950's with the A's and Indians. He had outplayed Bill Skowron at AAA Kansas City Blues, winning the American Association's Batting Championship. He was considered too loud and flashy by GM Weiss to be the 1st black Yankee player. Also he released P Ruben Gomez in the spring of 1951, who won 17 games for the 1954 New York Giants.
Elston Howard was respected and loved by his Yankee teammates from the 1st season on that he wore Yankee pinstripes, he had to wait until the 1960 season to become the Yankees regular catcher. The MLB didn't fully break the color line until 1959 seasonwith the Tigers and Red Sox joined with adding black players in their team playing rosters. In 1958, he won the Babe Ruth Award for his World Series play against the Braves. Howard was the 1963 AL MVP Award winner, he led the AL Catchers in fielding in 1962-1964. In 1963, he was 1st Yankee catcher win a Golden Glove, something that Yogi never did in his long Yankee career as a catcher. In the fall of 1968, he became the 1st Black Yankees MLB Coach. I believe that Howard would have been a MLB Manager before his early death in 1980 stopped that dream.
Clipper
I think it's all part of what led to today's "every kid in the race gets a trophy" mentality, a sense of entitlement that says "If I don't get what I want then you're disrespecting me and I'll file a complaint." I believe all recognition should be earned by achievement on the field, not clubhouse kumbaya.
I understand what you're saying, Clipper, but I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think most all of us see plaques and retired numbers in Monument Park that we disagree with. I'm a little surprised at Tino's plaque but I don't see a reason to argue over it. We go from the extreme of some believeing only Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra and Ford to retireing a lot of numbers (Paulie, Posada, etc.) from that 98 team. I'm in the middle. I don't think Martin, Maris, Jackson, Guidry, should be retired but I'm ok with the others. I also don't think Tino, Gossage and a couple of others should even have a plaque. Maris and his 61 in 61 should be a plaque. I'm glad Jeter, Mariano and Torre either have or will have their numbers retired
I also don't believe the #'s 1,9,10,32,37,44,49 should be retired but I have no issue with a plaque for all those guys and even Goose and Tino, et al. I also don't have an issue with people opining that they believe only a few elite players should be honored. My problem with Stewie and his ilk is when they try to "prove" their point (which is to say back up their OPINION) by minimizing and even trashing a player. It's totally uncalled for and then the usual martyrdom once they get pounced upon is just more comedy.
