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Question for you regarding Arod.
8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 11:22AM #21
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 22,069

I think we are getting bogged down in the narrative here and missing the context.  Prior to Hall of Fame voting Bob Nightengale wrote this on the cover of the sprts section of the USAToday


www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/0...


I agree with every last word of that.  Last night I hear Lance Armstrong on the radio.  Now Lance is a horrible person but I think he says some things that derserve a listen.  For me with Armstrong I always questioned if his doping gave him cancer in the first place and on the flip side if it was his doping that saved his life, would it even matter?


www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/30981609


In 2000 the average runs scored for a Major League team was 832, last year it was 659.  With all the deflategate stuff going on and the off the field drama from the NFL during the season they are not talking about how the NFL is still in it's steroid era.  Could you imagine if instead of a defensive end for the Colts if Robert Mathis was an outfielder for the Yankees?  People are having irreversible injuries from the super human football players slamming into each other but nobody wants to clean up the sport, they just make rules protecting the quarterback.  I think the NFL looked at the MLB and decided no we will keep our stars larger than life thank you.


I am sick of the talk about good users and bad users.  I hate that Kevin Millar and Curt Shilling were able to make comments about Rodriguez not being a real Yankee and so many Yankee fans ate it up.


Now that we have that out of the way Alex is dumb.  He says dumb things and does dumb things.  I wish he was gone, I wish we were not paying that salary, the bonus, and the cap hit.  They are all guaranteed under a collective bargaining agreement, we are not getting out of any of it except maybe the bonus if the Yankees are banking the Player's Association is bitter at Rodriguez and will cut off it's nose to spite it's face and set a dangerous precedent in letting them out of that deal.


New York is not an easy place to play and it's not for everyone.  Alex is not going to be the last Yankee with questionable character.  There will be more steroid users and some will be caught, some won't.  How Rodriguez is treated by the team going forward is going to be a factor in signing future free agents.  Don't think that it didn't hurt the Red Sox for years when the Organization would bash Boggs, Clemens, Vaugn, etc. as they moved on.


The money for Alex is as good as spent, from a purely practical perspective if he can produce I want him to and I want him to here.  If he looks like Pronk did then cut bait and DFA him.  If he is DFA'd or traded and performs better somewhere else than what we get in return then in my opinion we would have only made a terrible deal worse.

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 11:30AM #22
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 22,069

Jan 27, 2015 -- 10:37AM, YankeeLoon wrote:

I'm with you, Bomber. And some of us recall that in 07 I and others were adamantly opposed to re-signing him after his opt out. That was the most divisive this board has ever been.



Don't think anyone was pleased that he opted out.  The vast majority loved Cashman's stance.  Even more I think hated the $270million deal but after that it was spilt milk.  I'm hoping Stephen Drew proves me wrong.

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 11:50AM #23
YankeeLoon
Posts: 17,903
LL, I had bloody wars with people on this board over Arod....most of them are gone.
8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 1:52PM #24
diehardma
Posts: 7,509

Man, I wasn't on the boards way back then but I was really excited when they traded for him in 2004. Then again I was only 11 years old... The Easter Bunny brought me a "Rodriguez 13" Yankees shirt. That shirt was thrown out a long time ago. 

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 2:16PM #25
louisiana_lightning
Posts: 22,069

Jan 27, 2015 -- 1:52PM, diehardma wrote:


Man, I wasn't on the boards way back then but I was really excited when they traded for him in 2004. Then again I was only 11 years old... The Easter Bunny brought me a "Rodriguez 13" Yankees shirt. That shirt was thrown out a long time ago. 




It is uniquely A-Rod that he was the centerpiece of one of the most lopsided trades and the recipient of two of the worst if not the worst contracts in the history of baseball.  Seattle was incredibly fortunate to have him as the first overall pick, Texas gambled big and lost signing him driving Tom Hicks right out of the game, Cashman was brilliant in aquiring him and 40% of his pay for Soriano, and resigning him after the opt out was the worst move in the history of baseball signings.  Was there any other offer at all out there?  If the Yankees didn't flinch and kiss Buffet's butt would Alex have even been able to match the $108million for 4 years he walked away from?  The Rangers got to keep $44million they were on the hook for of that $108million, Boras didn't even give us the benefit of negotiating an extension with the Texas money intact.  This year we are giving a base salary of $5million to Drew after he set records for horrible at bats.  Drew should have been appreciative with a spring training invite after last season and you don't get to call him a defensive wizard if he is not playing short, I saw him at second.  Absolutely unbelievable.

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 2:42PM #26
BW26
Posts: 7,662

Jan 26, 2015 -- 10:32PM, Walton wrote:


1. Could the Yankees say, "here is your base salary of 21 million. We'll keep you on the 40 man roster but we want you to stay home. No baseball with us."..........Yes or No. Could they do this legally?


If they couldn't. Could they;


2. Pay him the money. Put him in a uniform. Have him be one of the 25 players and NOT play him? Have him sit in the corner of the dugout every night?..........No opinions please. Could they legally do this? Yes or No.


Thanks!




he wouldn't stand for it , neither would his lawyers or the player's association.

[
8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 5:11PM #27
RobS44
Posts: 5,608

Jan 27, 2015 -- 11:22AM, louisiana_lightning wrote:


I think we are getting bogged down in the narrative here and missing the context.  Prior to Hall of Fame voting Bob Nightengale wrote this on the cover of the sprts section of the USAToday


www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/0...


I agree with every last word of that.  Last night I hear Lance Armstrong on the radio.  Now Lance is a horrible person but I think he says some things that derserve a listen.  For me with Armstrong I always questioned if his doping gave him cancer in the first place and on the flip side if it was his doping that saved his life, would it even matter?


www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/30981609


In 2000 the average runs scored for a Major League team was 832, last year it was 659.  With all the deflategate stuff going on and the off the field drama from the NFL during the season they are not talking about how the NFL is still in it's steroid era.  Could you imagine if instead of a defensive end for the Colts if Robert Mathis was an outfielder for the Yankees?  People are having irreversible injuries from the super human football players slamming into each other but nobody wants to clean up the sport, they just make rules protecting the quarterback.  I think the NFL looked at the MLB and decided no we will keep our stars larger than life thank you.


I am sick of the talk about good users and bad users.  I hate that Kevin Millar and Curt Shilling were able to make comments about Rodriguez not being a real Yankee and so many Yankee fans ate it up.


Now that we have that out of the way Alex is dumb.  He says dumb things and does dumb things.  I wish he was gone, I wish we were not paying that salary, the bonus, and the cap hit.  They are all guaranteed under a collective bargaining agreement, we are not getting out of any of it except maybe the bonus if the Yankees are banking the Player's Association is bitter at Rodriguez and will cut off it's nose to spite it's face and set a dangerous precedent in letting them out of that deal.


New York is not an easy place to play and it's not for everyone.  Alex is not going to be the last Yankee with questionable character.  There will be more steroid users and some will be caught, some won't.  How Rodriguez is treated by the team going forward is going to be a factor in signing future free agents.  Don't think that it didn't hurt the Red Sox for years when the Organization would bash Boggs, Clemens, Vaugn, etc. as they moved on.


The money for Alex is as good as spent, from a purely practical perspective if he can produce I want him to and I want him to here.  If he looks like Pronk did then cut bait and DFA him.  If he is DFA'd or traded and performs better somewhere else than what we get in return then in my opinion we would have only made a terrible deal worse.




The players' union may despise ARod, but there is no way they won't go to the mattersses to get ARod his $6 mil if he hits 6 HRs.

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 5:22PM #28
RobS44
Posts: 5,608

Jan 27, 2015 -- 2:42PM, BW26 wrote:


Jan 26, 2015 -- 10:32PM, Walton wrote:


1. Could the Yankees say, "here is your base salary of 21 million. We'll keep you on the 40 man roster but we want you to stay home. No baseball with us."..........Yes or No. Could they do this legally?


If they couldn't. Could they;


2. Pay him the money. Put him in a uniform. Have him be one of the 25 players and NOT play him? Have him sit in the corner of the dugout every night?..........No opinions please. Could they legally do this? Yes or No.


Thanks!


The short answer is that they could  but it would almost certainly invite a grievance.  Given the value of roster spots, my guess is that if they have no intention of letting him play they would release him instead.




he wouldn't stand for it , neither would his lawyers or the player's association.




I am pretty sure there is nothing in ARod's contract that guarantees he play a minimum number of games or get a minimum number of ABs.  Absent the 660 HR bonus they could refuse to play him and there wouldn't be much the union could do about it other than file a grievance to force the Yankees to release him (on the assumption at least one team would be willing to take him on at only the cost of the league minimum).


However, by refusing to play him, they could argue it was to deny him the chance to earn the bonus.  I wouldn't put money on an arbitrator ruling against him, meaning ARod.

8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 5:29PM #29
BigGuy
Posts: 66,015

Yankees vs. Alex Rodriguez: How lawyers say team could avoid paying him




Yankees' Alex Rodriguez and other first base backup options

Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez. (AP Photo/Winslow Townson, File)








The Yankees still owe Alex Rodriguez tons of money. But, lawyers say, they might be able to get out of paying at least some of it.


A-Rod is set to make $61 million over the next three years. The Yankees don't have much choice other than to pay that, unless doctors declare the 39-year-old slugger physically unable to play baseball. In that case, insurance would likely pick up most of that cost.


But the Yankees are reportedly looking for ways out of a marketing deal they signed with Rodriguez in 2007, separate from the 10-year, $275-million pact both sides accepted that same season.


In the marketing arrangement, Rodriguez, who is fifth all-time with 654 career home runs, is set to earn $6 million each time he hits a particular milestone homer.


For example, he's set to earn that much if he ties Willie Mays' mark of 660 career home runs. Rodriguez would also earn $6 million if he reached each of the following plateaus: homer Nos. 714 (Hank Arron), 755 (Babe Ruth) and 762 (Barry Bonds). He'd also receive one final $6 million payment if he passes Bonds' all-time best mark.


On Tuesday, New Jersey Advanced Media spoke with several lawyers who haven't seen the marketing contract between Rodriguez and the Yankees, but still offered their opinions on how the Yankees might be able to wiggle their way out of it. A spokesman for Rodriguez declined comment on the situation. A call to the MLB Players Association wasn't immediately returned.


Here are potential legal arguments, lawyers say, the Yankees could use to contest the contract:


1. Did A-Rod breach a morality clause?


Many contracts have moral turpitude clauses, according to Charles Sullivan, a Seton Hall University law professor. Basically, these clauses hold the parties to a standard of conduct. The Yankees could make the cause, Sullivan said, that Rodriguez's performance-enhancing drug use violated that clause, since it violated the league's Joint Drug Agreement. "It should be fairly easy to get out of the contract if here's a morals clause," Sullivan said. "That's why we have them in there. To stop things like this."


2. Did Rodriguez commit fraud?


Rodriguez signed these deals with the Yankees in 2007. That was before Rodriguez publicly admitted in 2009 to using steroids. It was also before he reportedly told federal investigators in January 2014 that he used them again, just before he served his yearlong ban from baseball. According to Edison-based lawyer Kenneth Vercammen, it's possible the Yankees could argue that Rodriguez committed fraud by not telling them about his PED use. "You can defend fighting the contract based on a fraud argument sometimes," Vercammen said. "If someone enters into a contract and doesn't disclose something, they could say there was a fraud."


3. Are the milestones even marketable anymore?


Attorney Anthony R. Caruso, of Lyndhurst-based Scarinci-Hollenbeck, said the Yankees could argue that Rodriguez's reputation as a steroid cheat and a liar has killed the chances the Yankees -- or anybody not named Alex Emmanuel Rodriguez -- make any money off the contract. Vercammen agreed, saying the most people probably think the fact Rodriguez could pass several all-time greats on the career home run list is "worthless." "People don't like cheaters and people don't buy paraphernalia for people they think are cheaters," Vercammen said. "People root against cheaters. That's where the Yankees could come from. They could say, 'We can't sell this product.' If you're not at Yankee Stadium, are you going to cheer for him? Pepsi isn't going to sponsor that. It would be interesting to see what endorsements he even still has."


4. Is the deal too one-sided now?


Sure, Rodriguez would make $6 million for reaching certain marks. But what would the Yankees get out of it? Clayton P. Gillette, a New York University law school professor, said the Yankees could argue that it was Rodriguez's own actions that ruined their side of the contract's value. That's a big no-no, Gillette said. "One party to the contract can't simply frustrate the other party's purpose for entering into the contract," Gillette said. That might give the Yankees ground to not enforce the contract.


Brendan Kuty may be reached at bkuty@njadvancemedia.com" title="mailto:bkuty@njadvancemedia.com\">bkuty@njadvancemedia.com">bkuty@njadvancemedia.com">bkuty@njadvanc.... Follow him on Twitter @BrendanKutyNJ. Find NJ.com Yankees on Facebook.



"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
8 years ago  ::  Jan 27, 2015 - 5:32PM #30
BigGuy
Posts: 66,015

Jan 27, 2015 -- 2:42PM, BW26 wrote:


Jan 26, 2015 -- 10:32PM, Walton wrote:


1. Could the Yankees say, "here is your base salary of 21 million. We'll keep you on the 40 man roster but we want you to stay home. No baseball with us."..........Yes or No. Could they do this legally?


If they couldn't. Could they;


2. Pay him the money. Put him in a uniform. Have him be one of the 25 players and NOT play him? Have him sit in the corner of the dugout every night?..........No opinions please. Could they legally do this? Yes or No.


Thanks!




he wouldn't stand for it , neither would his lawyers or the player's association.




The Yankees would DFA him before just sitting him down for spite and putting up with all the garbage that would go along with it. If they aren't going to play him it makes no sense to keep him on the roster. Just pay him to sit on the beach and let the lawyers dispute his bonus monies.

"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
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