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Yankees and Remaining Free Agents
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 1:56PM #51
nost
Posts: 324

Mar 15, 2019 -- 1:52PM, Stewie wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:45PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:40PM, Stewie wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:31PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:15PM, nost wrote:


How arguing with you over a rotation that's not very stable ones gotta shake their heads.



If the playoff were today they'd lose.  



Yankees need SP help which ever way you wanna see it argue it.  But some around here instead of you three see it for what it is.  They need help beside AAA SP.  Thank you =)




Again, another weak argument.



1.  If the playoffs were TODAY you might be right... but that is largely because the ace is injured.  Then again, if the playoffs were TODAY, Severino probably wouldn't be shut down.



2.  If we have Sev, Paxton, Masa and Happ all healthy when the playoffs DO start, any attempt to say we authority that we would lose is foolish.  We'd have as good a shot with that quartet as any team would.



3.  The playoffs DON'T start today.  If the 4 guys I mentioned don't see to be healthy, there is TIME to make a move to address the situation.



Point 3 is what makes debating this with you so aggrevating.  You absolutely, 100% refuse  to acknowledge the reality that the trade deadline exists to shore up weaknesses that emerge during the course of the season.  If you can't even admit that then it is like talking to a brick wall.



And at the end of the day we aren't really debating the quality of the rotation.  We're debating a general outlook on the team:  This is a debate between a positive/rational mindset when looking at the team and a overly negative mindset.




Well, since you've already posited an absolute equivalency between


a. a positive attitude regarding the Yankees state of readiness and


b. rational thinking


there's really not much wiggle room there to offer any opinions other than those in lock-step with your own.  Sounds like there's a wrinkled old Hillary bumper sticker on your hybrid.





Hey, if the truth fits...



It's funny how often that overlap exists between people who are extremely negative and people who are completely irrational.



"If the playoffs started now..." is an irrational way to start a debate.  They don't.  They've never started in March and they never will start in March.  They don't even start before July 31st, which means that any attempt to paint the current team as being locked in as the team they're going to war with in OCTOBER is again, irrational.  There's time to add pieces and the team's history shows that they will add pieces at the deadline.







And at the end of the day we aren't really debating the quality of the rotation.  We're debating a general outlook on the team:  This is a debate between a positive/rational mindset when looking at the team and a overly negative mindset.




Well, since you've already posited an absolute equivalency between


a. a positive attitude regarding the Yankees state of readiness and


b. rational thinking


there's really not much wiggle room there to offer any opinions other than those in lock-step with your own.  Sounds like there's a wrinkled old Hillary bumper sticker on your hybrid.


..........


Hey, if the truth fits...



It's funny how often that overlap exists between people who are extremely negative and people who are completely irrational.


..........


Well, there you go again.  With  the arrogance to assume that your beliefs are indisputable and that those of others which differ from your own are the product of a weak and lazy mind.  I've seen this kind of thinking before.  Come on, 'fess up about that bumper sticker.







He won't admit they need starting pitching.  Or he's just can't see they needed SP before all this.  

4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 2:02PM #52
cleanuphtr12
Posts: 1,272

Mar 15, 2019 -- 1:52PM, Stewie wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:45PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:40PM, Stewie wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:31PM, cleanuphtr12 wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:15PM, nost wrote:


How arguing with you over a rotation that's not very stable ones gotta shake their heads.



If the playoff were today they'd lose.  



Yankees need SP help which ever way you wanna see it argue it.  But some around here instead of you three see it for what it is.  They need help beside AAA SP.  Thank you =)




Again, another weak argument.



1.  If the playoffs were TODAY you might be right... but that is largely because the ace is injured.  Then again, if the playoffs were TODAY, Severino probably wouldn't be shut down.



2.  If we have Sev, Paxton, Masa and Happ all healthy when the playoffs DO start, any attempt to say we authority that we would lose is foolish.  We'd have as good a shot with that quartet as any team would.



3.  The playoffs DON'T start today.  If the 4 guys I mentioned don't see to be healthy, there is TIME to make a move to address the situation.



Point 3 is what makes debating this with you so aggrevating.  You absolutely, 100% refuse  to acknowledge the reality that the trade deadline exists to shore up weaknesses that emerge during the course of the season.  If you can't even admit that then it is like talking to a brick wall.



And at the end of the day we aren't really debating the quality of the rotation.  We're debating a general outlook on the team:  This is a debate between a positive/rational mindset when looking at the team and a overly negative mindset.




Well, since you've already posited an absolute equivalency between


a. a positive attitude regarding the Yankees state of readiness and


b. rational thinking


there's really not much wiggle room there to offer any opinions other than those in lock-step with your own.  Sounds like there's a wrinkled old Hillary bumper sticker on your hybrid.





Hey, if the truth fits...



It's funny how often that overlap exists between people who are extremely negative and people who are completely irrational.



"If the playoffs started now..." is an irrational way to start a debate.  They don't.  They've never started in March and they never will start in March.  They don't even start before July 31st, which means that any attempt to paint the current team as being locked in as the team they're going to war with in OCTOBER is again, irrational.  There's time to add pieces and the team's history shows that they will add pieces at the deadline.







And at the end of the day we aren't really debating the quality of the rotation.  We're debating a general outlook on the team:  This is a debate between a positive/rational mindset when looking at the team and a overly negative mindset.




Well, since you've already posited an absolute equivalency between


a. a positive attitude regarding the Yankees state of readiness and


b. rational thinking


there's really not much wiggle room there to offer any opinions other than those in lock-step with your own.  Sounds like there's a wrinkled old Hillary bumper sticker on your hybrid.


..........


Hey, if the truth fits...



It's funny how often that overlap exists between people who are extremely negative and people who are completely irrational.


..........


Well, there you go again.  With  the arrogance to assume that your beliefs are indisputable and that those of others which differ from your own are the product of a weak and lazy mind.  I've seen this kind of thinking before.  Come on, 'fess up about that bumper sticker.







You firmly believed that the Yankees should have punted on the postseason in 2018 by shutting Judge down for the year.  That is completely irrational.  "Weak and lazy mind" are your words.  Don't put them in my mouth.


_______________________________________________

Please note:  I'm arguing against your post, not against you as a person.  I respect your right to have a different opinion even if I completely disagree with every word you wrote.
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 2:09PM #53
cleanuphtr12
Posts: 1,272

Mar 15, 2019 -- 1:56PM, nost wrote:


He won't admit they need starting pitching.  Or he's just can't see they needed SP before all this.  




I've said this several times and I think I'm being pretty clear on it:



The rotation and the AAA depth they have is fine for right now.



At the deadline, there might be a need for another pitcher.  IF that need exists, they have time to address it.



_______________________________________________

Please note:  I'm arguing against your post, not against you as a person.  I respect your right to have a different opinion even if I completely disagree with every word you wrote.
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 3:38PM #54
SSBob
Posts: 12,792

Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:15PM, nost wrote:


Yankees need SP help which ever way you wanna see it...  




~~~~~~~~~~~


www.youtube.com/watch?v=huXORnAtDig




4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 4:05PM #55
qwik3457
Posts: 12,673

Mar 15, 2019 -- 10:32AM, nost wrote:


These AAA SP shouild not be splitting 30+ starts the Yankees have done this in the past.  I rather like some others here would have liked to see the Yankees go out and grab a  make a splash in the FA market but most of the goods ones are already gone.


I honestly believe that the Yankees are not going to get a full season outta Servino I hope I'm wrong and the Yankees have no idea what's left in CCs tank.  So as the season progresses I don't like the options at AAA right now and if they gotta trade it seems all Cash knows what to do is grab crap and hope it pans out.




We already know that they're not getting a full season out of Severino; the moment they announced he had rotator cuff inflammation we knew that.


CC will likely be about as good as he was last year, perhaps a little worse.


About 90% of pitchers called up from AAA struggle at first in the rotation. I read a scouting report from last night (anonymous, from the scout of another team) that says they think German is ready to be a rotation starter now. Maybe he's wrong, but maybe the scout is right. Let's watch and see.


Well, inasmuch as Cashman has traded for both Happ and Paxton within the last 8 months, it would appear that grabbing crap is not all he know.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 4:20PM #56
qwik3457
Posts: 12,673

Mar 15, 2019 -- 10:35AM, bruner4329 wrote:


Mar 15, 2019 -- 4:29AM, qwik3457 wrote:


Mar 14, 2019 -- 4:39PM, bruner4329 wrote:


Let's see. We lost the division by 8 games and were 7 behind after 18 games. So doesn't that prove games lost in April are just as important. If you base it on that we matched them just about even the rest of the way except for 1 game. It is not illogical if the Math supports the facts.




Doesn't the fact that the Yanks caught the Sox and passed by them and built a 2 1/2 game lead as late as June 1st prove that the first 18 games didn't decide the division?


The Yanks were in trouble anyway, but the 4-game sweep by the Red sox in Boston in early August pretty much decided the division.




No. Just like a game when a team is down 20 points, exhausts itself to get back in and then runs out of gas. Fact is every year we go into a season with a starting rotation lacking depth and we end up overusing the bullpen every year. I will say it again the fact that we are relying on Luis Cessa as a depth starter is an absolute joke.


One other point. This year again there is a good chance that both the Red Sox and Yanks will need to win 100 games to win the division so every game whether April or September plays a role. You don't want to be giving games away early that ultimately makes you come up short in the end.




Well, OK, so they were up by 2 as late as June 20th, and still within one game of 1st on June 30th.


They then went 15-10 in July (that's .600 ball, you know), and still lost 4 games in the standings. That doesn't look like exhaustion to me.


They got swept in early August and were 9 games out after the series was over. They then went 17-9 to the end of the month. 17-9 is .650 ball. That doesn't look like exhaustion to me. They were 7 1/2 back at the end of August


They then went 15-12 in September. With a subpar Severino, who may have already been feeling some effect of his shoulder problem. And a subpar Judge, who was still trying to recover from a broken hand. And a way, way subpar Sanchez, dealing with his own shoulder and hamstring problems.


15-12 is .556 ball. Doesn't sound like exhaustion to me. But if you mean injury attrition, that's possible, but that has nothing to do with the depth in the rotation at the start of last year or now.


They caught the Red Sox on June 16th (I misread the schedule before, they caught up in June, not the end of May.) At that moment, they went 46-21. From there to the end of the season, they went 54-41, a .560+ WPCT, and a pace of 92-70. If that's exhaustion, I wouldn't mind exhaustion every season.


======================================


For the Red Sox on the other hand...


They started 18-2. They then went 30-22 until the Yankees caught them.


From that point, until the end of the season, the Sox had a record of 78-32. That's .700 ball.


The Yanks lost the division to the Sox because they played .700 ball for two-thirds of a season and because at a critical moment of the season, the Sox swept them in the biggest series of the season. The Yanks had come out the break and gone 6-5. And the Sox just buried them.


That's all.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 4:21PM #57
qwik3457
Posts: 12,673

Mar 15, 2019 -- 10:39AM, nost wrote:


It seems some around here don't see the rotation for what we see it as.  I respect their opinions but how does one argue to the point that their rotationis fine when it could and shoulda gotten better this past off season...?




It did get better.


Unless you think that Paxton won't pitch better than Gray did with the Yankees.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 4:22PM #58
qwik3457
Posts: 12,673

Mar 15, 2019 -- 11:38AM, nost wrote:


I'm meant to say I think he goes down at some point in the season after April.  I hope I'm toitally worng on this one.




Alternatively he might not be back until well after May 1st. That's possible.


We simply don't know yet.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 4:54PM #59
qwik3457
Posts: 12,673

Mar 15, 2019 -- 12:15PM, nost wrote:


How arguing with you over a rotation that's not very stable ones gotta shake their heads.


If the playoff were today they'd lose.  


Yankees need SP help which ever way you wanna see it argue it.  But some around here instead of you three see it for what it is.  They need help beside AAA SP.  Thank you =)




Lots of teams, even contenders, don't have "stable rotations" right now. If you want to see what a really unstable rotation looks like, check out the Braves right now.


Wouldn't that same concept apply to an "unstable bullpen"? The performance of the Red Sox bullpen was a key factor in them winning it all last year. By the same logic, if the playoffs were held today, they'd lose, because their pen is "unstable". But the Sox haven't run out and re-signed Kimbrel now, have they? Why would that be? Doesn't Dombrowski want to repeat?


=====================================


Actually, the logic behind both your point and mine is suspect. Very suspect. Teams have won titles without a decent shortstop (2011 Cards, Theriot was slightly better than replacement level). Or a decent catcher (2018 Red Sox). They've won with a weak outfield (2003 Marlins; Pierre was 3.5bWAR almost all of it for defense and position differential, and Hollandsworth and Encarnacion were 0.1 bWAR each). They've won with closers who were very suspect going in and they've won with closers dying on them in the post-season (2017 Astros).


And they've even won it despite having weak, even bad, rotations. In 2006, the Cards starting pitchers, in order of games started in the regular season:


Carpenter 15-8, 3.09 ERA, 5.1 bWAR


Marquis 14-16, 6.02 ERA, -1.7 bWAR


Suppan 12-7, 4.12 ERA, 1.2 bWAR


Mulder 6-7, 7.14 ERA, -1.8bWAR


Reyes 5-8, 5.06 ERA, 0.4 bWAR


Weaver (YES, Jeff Weaver!), 5-4, 5.18 ERA, 0.0 bWAR


Ponson (YES, Sidney Ponson!!), 4-4, 5.24 ERA, -0.2 bWAR


And that's it. If you're counting at home, the Cardinals starters amassed 3 bWAR over 160 games started. Their starters as a whole went 61-54 with a 4.72 ERA. If you use Wins Above Average rather thean above replacement, the Cards' starters, as a group, were 6 games below the NL average, and ranked 14th in 2006 NL. Their starting pitching ERA alone was 12th in the 16 team league. They were 12th in the NL in quality starts. And the Cards knew they were weak in this area all year long. But the only move they made to fix their starting staff was to sign Ponson as a free agent in the off-season. they wound up releasing him in early July. They didn't sign a big free agent pitcher. They didn't trade their farm for an ace. They didn't even make a significant mid-season pickup to the rotation.


And they still won it all, beating the Tigers team that knocked the Yankees out easily in 5 games. The combined ERA of the Cards' starters in that series? 9 ER in 33 innings, good for a nifty 2.45 ERA


So how a rotation looks at the end of September doesn't decide how they'll do in October. What does that say about how it looks in April?


===============================================


Actually, there's a simpler answer to your point:


The playoffs aren't today.

Knowledge is Good -- Emil Faber
4 years ago  ::  Mar 15, 2019 - 11:09PM #60
jimwest
Posts: 5,263

Mar 15, 2019 -- 4:05PM, qwik3457 wrote:


About 90% of pitchers called up from AAA struggle at first in the rotation. I read a scouting report from last night (anonymous, from the scout of another team) that says they think German is ready to be a rotation starter now. Maybe he's wrong, but maybe the scout is right. Let's watch and see.




qwik, from what I saw of German last year, he isn't that good, and I don't think he will be. In his 85 IP, a 5.57 ERA, 1.331 WHIP. However, I'll grant that isn't a long or large sample size.


He has good minor league stats, but was very hittable last year in MLB. He may be a ML rotation starter, but I'd say with his 2018 numbers, he would be a very mediocre #5 at best. He turns 27 in August, so he needs to step up now when he is needed if he has the goods.


When he gets healthy, I'd like to see what Mike King can do on the Yanks. Tremendous 2018 for him, excellent stats at all levels as he blew through Tampa to Trenton, to SWB. King is 24 in May, and it is time to see what he has at the ML level.

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