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2022 payroll reality check
3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 2:27PM #21
bruner4329
Posts: 4,332

Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:12PM, bumper wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 1:19PM, Jon wrote:


The reality is that Steinbrenner cares too much about the luxury tax and not enough about putting a good team on the field.




the reality is that other than the dodgers, all the other teams in the post-season are under (some significantly) the LT.


your solution is to spend, spend, spend. that's just kicking the can down the road. we need to go back the philsophy of the 90's teams, where you develop a core of good young players and then you fill in the gaps by spending. you develop a system where you have a continuous pipeline of young, athletic players. that's how you win. not by plugging holes with the most expensive free agents you can find.


and please don't tell me you were one of those chumps who bought into george's catch phrase/marketing slogan. damn you were taken




Don't disagree about the 90s teams but lets get the facts clear. We were able to have 5 core guys from the farm system in Bernie, Jeter, Posada, Mariano and Andy. However although we had a well balanced lineup not all came from the system. Tino, Knoblauch, Strawberry, Raines and Brosius were all either trses or FAs. More importantly the corner stone of the team all came via FA or trades. Outside of Andy, Cone Wells El Duque and eventually Clemens were all not from within. Same with Bullpen outside of Mo and Mendoza with Wettland, Nelson, Stanton, Lloyd etal. And that is the biggest difference. Cashman outside of 2009 with CC and AJ has never been able to put together a complete pitching staff. WE always have 1 top guy and then a binch of average starters. Not a recipe for success.

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 2:33PM #22
Hobbs
Posts: 180

Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:12PM, bumper wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 1:19PM, Jon wrote:


The reality is that Steinbrenner cares too much about the luxury tax and not enough about putting a good team on the field.




the reality is that other than the dodgers, all the other teams in the post-season are under (some significantly) the LT.


your solution is to spend, spend, spend. that's just kicking the can down the road. we need to go back the philsophy of the 90's teams, where you develop a core of good young players and then you fill in the gaps by spending. you develop a system where you have a continuous pipeline of young, athletic players. that's how you win. not by plugging holes with the most expensive free agents you can find.


and please don't tell me you were one of those chumps who bought into george's catch phrase/marketing slogan. damn you were taken





 Yes your right but we can't or haven't so what's your answer.

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 3:09PM #23
1955nyyfan
Posts: 2,935

Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:33PM, Hobbs wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:12PM, bumper wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 1:19PM, Jon wrote:


The reality is that Steinbrenner cares too much about the luxury tax and not enough about putting a good team on the field.




the reality is that other than the dodgers, all the other teams in the post-season are under (some significantly) the LT.


your solution is to spend, spend, spend. that's just kicking the can down the road. we need to go back the philsophy of the 90's teams, where you develop a core of good young players and then you fill in the gaps by spending. you develop a system where you have a continuous pipeline of young, athletic players. that's how you win. not by plugging holes with the most expensive free agents you can find.


and please don't tell me you were one of those chumps who bought into george's catch phrase/marketing slogan. damn you were taken





 Yes your right but we can't or haven't so what's your answer.




I know your question is directed at Bumper, but I'll give you my answer. With the risk of sounding like a broken record, how about we not spend big on a FA SS and give one of the kids a chance to win the job in a year or two? This may not be in the Yankee DNA but it's an approach that has worked for them in the past. 


Ironically, George even tried to trade almost ever member of the core 5, but a stubborn Gene Micheals wouldn't allow it to happen. In fact, I think there were times he told George that no one else would take these kids in order to get him off his back. That's the kind of patience we need. Understanding for the next couple years we may not have a high priced "all star" at every position. 


I'll also give Cash some credit for trading expendible pieces for young prospects like Loaisiga, Holmes and Gil who look like they might be contributors. Continue with this approach, see what you can get for Gallo, Voit, and a couple others who don't seem to fit the plan moving forward. 

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 3:28PM #24
Hobbs
Posts: 180

Oct 15, 2021 -- 3:09PM, 1955nyyfan wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:33PM, Hobbs wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 2:12PM, bumper wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 1:19PM, Jon wrote:


The reality is that Steinbrenner cares too much about the luxury tax and not enough about putting a good team on the field.




the reality is that other than the dodgers, all the other teams in the post-season are under (some significantly) the LT.


your solution is to spend, spend, spend. that's just kicking the can down the road. we need to go back the philsophy of the 90's teams, where you develop a core of good young players and then you fill in the gaps by spending. you develop a system where you have a continuous pipeline of young, athletic players. that's how you win. not by plugging holes with the most expensive free agents you can find.


and please don't tell me you were one of those chumps who bought into george's catch phrase/marketing slogan. damn you were taken





 Yes your right but we can't or haven't so what's your answer.




I know your question is directed at Bumper, but I'll give you my answer. With the risk of sounding like a broken record, how about we not spend big on a FA SS and give one of the kids a chance to win the job in a year or two? This may not be in the Yankee DNA but it's an approach that has worked for them in the past. 


Ironically, George even tried to trade almost ever member of the core 5, but a stubborn Gene Micheals wouldn't allow it to happen. In fact, I think there were times he told George that no one else would take these kids in order to get him off his back. That's the kind of patience we need. Understanding for the next couple years we may not have a high priced "all star" at every position. 


I'll also give Cash some credit for trading expendible pieces for young prospects like Loaisiga, Holmes and Gil who look like they might be contributors. Continue with this approach, see what you can get for Gallo, Voit, and a couple others who don't seem to fit the plan moving forward. 





Got it. You're in the stopgap wait on the kids camp. Thats a legitimate view. Not saying it's wrong. The argument is that we are in a win now mode and shouldn't waist another year of Judge, Stanton, Cole etc. waiting on the kids. Get a proven productive SS and go for it. It's a gamble either way.

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 3:52PM #25
1955nyyfan
Posts: 2,935
Hobbs, I also think that we can compete in the short term with a player like Wade at SS if we make some other upgrades and I realize we will have to sign a FA or two and maybe make a couple smart trades. I'd just rather that energy go toward positions where there are not possible internal solutions that are getting close. It is a tough balancing act and there are risks with my approach but the strategy, IMO, has to be more evolved than "hey this guy's available".

For example, If I were Cash, Id be on the phone with the Cubs at least trying to understand if Contrearas is available. The Cubs are rebuilding, he's in his walk year, a much better catcher than Sanchez and about the same age. He'd even be cheaper from a salary perspective. If he's even available, he would cost some prospects, but an addition like him would, IMO, really improve the team.
3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 5:15PM #26
Hobbs
Posts: 180

Oct 15, 2021 -- 3:52PM, 1955nyyfan wrote:

Hobbs, I also think that we can compete in the short term with a player like Wade at SS if we make some other upgrades and I realize we will have to sign a FA or two and maybe make a couple smart trades. I'd just rather that energy go toward positions where there are not possible internal solutions that are getting close. It is a tough balancing act and there are risks with my approach but the strategy, IMO, has to be more evolved than "hey this guy's available". For example, If I were Cash, Id be on the phone with the Cubs at least trying to understand if Contrearas is available. The Cubs are rebuilding, he's in his walk year, a much better catcher than Sanchez and about the same age. He'd even be cheaper from a salary perspective. If he's even available, he would cost some prospects, but an addition like him would, IMO, really improve the team.




Reasonable take. I stated in a previous post awhile back that my top trade targets would be Contrearas of the Cubs and Matt Olsen of the A's for 1st base. If we could do that and get a SS I would be a happy camper. Smile

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 5:18PM #27
yankoldfan
Posts: 11,593

Here lies the problems with big FA signings, Owners are over paying for a player that has a lot of his career in their rear view mirror... I can't understand why fans are complaining about how much these guys are making, it should be the owners and the GM's that are complaining because they have messed up.. In all reality, teams like the Rays are playing the winning game, never a big team salary, if they get a player that looks like he's going to be a star, they bite the bullet and move him for some very promising players that are still cheap... Not all are going to work, but when you get two or three top prospects, they usually get one that works out really well... We might say, the Rays have better scouts or they have better coaches that can get the best out of those kids..

3 months ago  ::  Oct 15, 2021 - 6:26PM #28
Hobbs
Posts: 180

Oct 15, 2021 -- 5:18PM, yankoldfan wrote:


Here lies the problems with big FA signings, Owners are over paying for a player that has a lot of his career in their rear view mirror... I can't understand why fans are complaining about how much these guys are making, it should be the owners and the GM's that are complaining because they have messed up.. In all reality, teams like the Rays are playing the winning game, never a big team salary, if they get a player that looks like he's going to be a star, they bite the bullet and move him for some very promising players that are still cheap... Not all are going to work, but when you get two or three top prospects, they usually get one that works out really well... We might say, the Rays have better scouts or they have better coaches that can get the best out of those kids..




Would you like to pursue that business model and if so would you trade judge this winter to bring back a haul of prospects ?

3 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2021 - 7:37AM #29
yankoldfan
Posts: 11,593

Oct 15, 2021 -- 6:26PM, Hobbs wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 5:18PM, yankoldfan wrote:


Here lies the problems with big FA signings, Owners are over paying for a player that has a lot of his career in their rear view mirror... I can't understand why fans are complaining about how much these guys are making, it should be the owners and the GM's that are complaining because they have messed up.. In all reality, teams like the Rays are playing the winning game, never a big team salary, if they get a player that looks like he's going to be a star, they bite the bullet and move him for some very promising players that are still cheap... Not all are going to work, but when you get two or three top prospects, they usually get one that works out really well... We might say, the Rays have better scouts or they have better coaches that can get the best out of those kids..




Would you like to pursue that business model and if so would you trade judge this winter to bring back a haul of prospects ?




It's not the Yankee way, I'm a Yankee fan and most likely wouldn't trade Judge, but I'm betting the Rays would ?? I think the Rays look at it this way, there's no one man teams that win much... Just think of some of the players the Rays have traded that would most likely be having big pay days if they were a Yankee ??


If you think about it, the Yankees haven't won anything for a few years, but neither has the Rays, but it's cost the Yankees a lot of money and the Rays not so much...


Going cheap is just not the Yankee way...

3 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2021 - 8:52AM #30
Giancarlo
Posts: 316

Oct 15, 2021 -- 5:15PM, Hobbs wrote:


Oct 15, 2021 -- 3:52PM, 1955nyyfan wrote:

Hobbs, I also think that we can compete in the short term with a player like Wade at SS if we make some other upgrades and I realize we will have to sign a FA or two and maybe make a couple smart trades. I'd just rather that energy go toward positions where there are not possible internal solutions that are getting close. It is a tough balancing act and there are risks with my approach but the strategy, IMO, has to be more evolved than "hey this guy's available". For example, If I were Cash, Id be on the phone with the Cubs at least trying to understand if Contrearas is available. The Cubs are rebuilding, he's in his walk year, a much better catcher than Sanchez and about the same age. He'd even be cheaper from a salary perspective. If he's even available, he would cost some prospects, but an addition like him would, IMO, really improve the team.




Reasonable take. I stated in a previous post awhile back that my top trade targets would be Contrearas of the Cubs and Matt Olsen of the A's for 1st base. If we could do that and get a SS I would be a happy camper. 



Yankees: 3 trade packages that could land Matt Olson from Athletics (yanksgoyard.com)


Torres + Voit, + a couple of intriguing minor league pitchers like Gil, Vazquez, Schmidt, Medina?   I don't think the As are going to want some of the other guys he floats, like Hicks and Gallo.   I would be OK with Oswaldo Cabrera going over, but not Peraza or Volpe.    Kemp is not a bad idea either.

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